Light Weapons in Romanian Service

It is the model 1879 Romanian Henry- Martiny made by Steyr

Cristian, the so called "7.92mm Mouscheton model 1890" could be in fact the 8mm Mannlicher-Berthier model 1890 ?

With a caliber of 11mm, we are certainly talking here of rifles firing metal cartridges charged with black power - the switch to smaller calibres begun actually before the adoption of smokeless power, with rifles like the Portuguese Guedes (in 8mm, or, to be more exact 8x60R), a very accurate single-shot, dropping block lever actuated rifle somewhat similar to the Martini-Henry, and the Kropatschek, also in 8mm (the Portuguese version, built by Steyr, differed considerably from the variant built in France and used by the Marine Nationale, which, incidentely fired the same 11mm round as the M.1874 Gras single shooter).
Cristian, do you have details about the cartridge used in the Romanian Martini-Henry, Model 1879 made by Steyr? This design was one of last successful single-shot rifles of the dropping block kind, instead of the increasingly common bolts. However, by 1879, single-shot rifles in general and those using systems other than bolts were getting obsolete at a very fast pace. The last ones built were of the Remington pattern, made for several South American countries at the beggining of the XX century (a small batch was even built for the French in 8mm Lebel, in a desperate attempt to bolster the number of rifles available to the forces during World War I)...
Very interesting subject!

Ruy

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on March 24, 2005 11:27 am

Dragos,

Even if the question wasn't addressed to me, I feel tempted to answer. It seems plausible, but the two calibres were in fact quite different. The French 8mm Lebel was the first smokeless cartridge adopted by a major power and as such it possess some archaic features. It is rimmed (this is not exactly a problem - the Russian 7,62x54R cartridge was first devised in 1891 and it is still around... and the .303 was until very recently too!) and the brass is notoriously tapered. On the other hand, the 7,92x57mm German round is totally rimless, with a modern, cylindrical brass body. Any re-chambering would be a difficult operation (although not impossible) on the Berthier Model 1890. Are you sure about the designation "7.92mm Mouscheton model 1890"? Because if the calibre was 8mm, it is almost sure that we talking of the little French carbine that kicks like a mule...

Ruy

Ruy :You are right 100% about the Berthier ....it is 8mm Lebel .

(The confusion may be that the americans refers to the german catridge of 7,92mm as a "8mm" too.....)

Interestingly enough ,this french caliber was not so unknown on the eastern front since the germans used to give foreign weapons of hard-to -find calibers to their foreign auxiliaries .They gave captured french Lebel to the russians auxiliaries of the O.D (Ordnungsdienst ) ,like they gave english .303 caliber Lee-Enfield to the albanese Balli Kombetar militia .In case of a desertion to the partisans ,the man would be nearly unable to find this specific ammunition for his rifle .

Also the french revolver (8mm) is not a model 1896 (which never existed) but the model 1892.

And let's remember that the french 8mm cartridge is not interchangeable with the austrian 8mm cartridge ,so we may deduce that all those diversity of calibers was a logistical nightmare for the rumanian supplies-officers !

Yes, this kind of rifle is mentioned in the book "Istoria infanteriei romane", published prior of 1989.

Also the 8mm Berthier model 1907/15 is given as Saint-Etienne model 1907/15.

ostuf
The 1892 St Etienne revolver was adopted by the romanian government as"revolver model 1896" I dont know the reason why...

Ruy
The romanian Martiny cartridge seems to be unique in the Martiny gallery.Is similar to 11,3x59R Turkish but not identical. I found some cases with a Henry wreck rifle and the lenght of the case is 60mm, and the bore mouth 11mm. So we can call it 11x 60?

Dragos
that "muscheton" could be the Mannlicher 1888/90 in 8 mm caliber.The 7,92 designation is quite peculiar...

So far we have the following list of rifles and carbines used by Romanian Army during WW1 and WW2.

- 11mm Martini-Henry model 1879
- 7.92mm Mouscheton model 1890 ???
- 7.62mm Mosin Nagant model 1891
- 6.5mm Mannlicher model 1893
- 8mm (7.92mm) Mannlicher model 1895
- 7.92mm Mauser model 1898 (98K)
- 8mm Saint-Etienne (Berthier) model 1907/15
- 8mm Lebel model 1917
- 7.92mm ZB model 1924
- 7.62mm Mosin Nagant model 1891/30

Additions and corrections are welcome.

Dragos,

Saint-Etienne is just the name of one of big French arsenals that produced small weapons (later known by the acronym MAS - Manufacture d'Armes de Saint Etienne; another example is Chatelleraut, later MAC - Manufacture d'Armes de Chatelleraut). However, and in what pertains to the Berthier, it was produced at Saint-Etienne actually before the arsenal created his own design department, in 1921, which worked around a new modern cartridge, then about to be tested, the future 7,5x54 MAS - it this department who projected the MAS 36 bolt-action rifle and its derivatives, the MAS 35 semi-auto pistol, the MAS 38 SMG, etc, etc. I must note, also, that the Berthier rifles and carbiens were also built by Chatelleraut, and even - at least the long rifle - by Remington, in the U.S. So, it is more correct to use just the name of the rifle, instead of the maker: Berthier M 07/15. Please note also that it is highly probably that the carbine Berthier M 1916 (with an extended magazine box, for five cartridges, and thus enabling the use of five round clips) might also have been used by the Romanian army in the later stages of World War I or in its aftermath. The Greeks and Serbians used small numbers.

Ruy

Cristian,

The reason of the revolver designation only reflects its year of adoption in the Romanian army, nothing more. There are plenty of examples out there, of weapons already extant adopted later on by countries other than the original place of manufacture where they got new model and/or year designations, even when there was no visible modification to the gun. I give you one example: the Portuguese expeditionary force sent to fight with the French and British on the Western Front in France, during the Great War, were supplied by the British and armed with S.M.L.E. Mk.III and Mk III* .303 Lee-Enfields (while they retained the indigenous M.902 Mauser-Vergueiro and its unique 6,5x58 cartridge for use in Africa) - the rifle was given a model and year designation, Espingarda 7,7mm, M.917.

Thanks for your details on the Romanian Martini cartridge. Anyway, and if the actual lenght of the case is 60mm, it should be called 11x60R (remember that it is rimmed!).

Ruy

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on March 31, 2005 12:27 pm

I' ll try to measure the rifled barrell, but is full of rust and I need to clean it .I sow some sources call it 11,43X60R Romanian( or .45 Romanian)

Cristian,

Do you mean Romanian sources? I am asking this because the small-arms field seems to have been a bit neglected by Romanian historians.

Ruy

Still on the Romanian M 1879, its calibre and designation…

In first place, technically and historically speaking, the correct designation of the Romanian rifle should be Peabody-Martini. Why? Because the Romanian gun was almost a duplicate of the Turkish M 1874 Peabody-Martini rifle (even though according to the 11x60R isn’t interchangeable with the .45 Turkish round)… The story is complex and has to do with the classic, circumvent ways in which patents were actually put into use in the XIX century. When the Turks approached the British arsenals in order to acquire Martini-Henry rifles, their request was refused. Being unable to buy the original British Army gun, Turkey bought instead the Peabody-Martini (a number in excess of 600,000) during the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78, from a U.S. firm, the Providence Tool Company (who owned the rights to the Peabody action). Of course, a more fitting taxonomy for the both rifles (the Romanian and the Turkish) really should be "Peabody-Martini-Henry" – due to the Henry rifling type used. That notwithstanding, and maybe I am going to far with this, but if we follow the same reasoning, that should be the correct, complete nomenclature for the British rifle as well!!

Most of the Romanian Peabody-Martinis known show an elaborate circular marking on the right side of receiver, where one can read “Armata Romana” and “Arma Md. 1879”, the first inside a belt-like design, the later inside the circle itself. The left side of the receiver shows the marking of the manufacturer, O.E.W.G. in Steyr, also a roundel-like marking, very much like the one found in the Portuguese Guedes rifles (a vast majority of whose, incidentally, was made by the same company). A small, initial batch might have been produced elsewhere, for John Walter, ("Rifles of the World", Krause Publication, Iola, 1998) says that M 1879 rifles were also produced in Germany, by a Ruhr-based firm, Waffen-und Guss-stahl Fabrik, in 1879-1880. Maybe their output or speed of production wasn't enough to meet the Romanian government needs.

Just a last question on the Romanian M 1879 rifle: is there any example in mint condition in the Muzeul Militar National?

Ruy

Another guest...The 11mm Vetterli rifle model1881.Until 28th of november 1917 Romania received a total of 122.983 pieces
Also, the number of Henry(Peabody)-Martini distributed to troops during 1916-1917 was 67.237 rifles and 4.327 carbines

Cristian, very interesting information. What is your source? Do you have similar info for rifles issued in the interwar period and during WW2?