Light Weapons in Romanian Service

I want to thank all of you for your contributions; your information will be very useful.

One thing that I am not clear with yet, is the Mannlicher M-95; have the Romanians used any of those in their original 8x56(the Austrian round)?

Dragos has listed the all the rifles known and presumed to have been used by Romania. That list included the Lebel and Berthier. I do not have much knowledge of these rifles; I have attached a photo of a rifle that I cannot identify, but I believe to be a French, quite possibly one of the two(Lebel or Berthier)... I've aquired it a couple years back, from a farmer who had no clue as to what the damn thing was and for 40 bucks I can't complain... Can somebody tell me what this thing is????
(The side of the receiver is marked: St. Etienne Mle. 1907_15, while the top has I.C. Orman marking; the serials are mismatched).

This post has been edited by Suburban on March 25, 2005 06:06 am

Attached Image

That's the Berthier.Nice display!

At a second vue I noticed is a full stock version. There is any bayo lug?

Nope, can't attach a bayonet to it anywhere.
I think it's a cavalry carbine of some sort... So if this is a Berthier, I am happy. Too bad I can't get any ammo for it; if I knew what it uses..., maybe 8mm Lebel??

Seems that M1895 was not only captured rifles but also bought by romanian government.During 1916 Romania imported 44.400 pieces At the end of thirthies 1895 will be replaced by the VZ24,but will be still in use durring WW2
Suburban
Regarding your Berthier you need to verify if it is a 1907/15 M34 model wich is in 7,5mm French caliber. The rear sight is a Mauser ramp type or can be put in vertical position for long range shooting?

Well, I guess the only way to find out what caliber it uses, would be to try chambering different rounds("don't try this at home" ...., or you might have a very bad day ). But the problem is that I do not have any sort of French ammo, I don't even know if it is available anywhere, other than museums. It took me a whole year to find 3 boxes of Austrian 8x56mm... (which is not supposed to be that rare), imagine this... At least it looks good on the wall
Yeah, the rear sight is of the same type as that of the Mauser or Mosin, but simpler and smaller. In my humble opinion the combination of crappy sights and a short barrel would make this rifle quite innacurate and I would assume the kick would be hard. I hope there are better versions of this rifle.

This post has been edited by Suburban on March 25, 2005 09:33 am

See
http://www.ammo-one.com to miliyary cartridges
and add to chart

Suburban,

Be careful with Mannlicher straight-pulls... The Austro-Hungarian original calibre wasn't the 8x56R - this was developed and adopted by the Austrians after W.W. I and follow suit by the Hungarians. The original calibre was 8x50R, with a different load, a different bullet and so on. The guns modified to take the later round were appropriately marked with a big "S" (meaning "Spitzer") over the receiver ring. However, and if you are in the U.S., you can find specially reloaded 8x50R ammo and plenty of surplus 8x56R too.

As for the carbine photo you posted, well, it is a most interesting variation of the Berthier: the gun is a Turkish Berthier Carbine M 1948 Orman (modified from a French Modele 1916 or from a full lenght 07/15 rifle, yours was obviously re-built from one of the later), rebuilt at Ankara and fitted with a front sight band/ear-type protectors like those found, for instance in the Spanish Cavalry Mauser Carbine (the Turks had used short Mauser carbines with the same type of front sight band/sight protection, so it is no wonder they used spare parts). Apparently, these handy yet obsolete rifles were used by the Turkish Forestry Service and the Turks might have got them from France as military surplus for a downright cheap price apiece. The original 8mm Lebel chambering was retained, though...
Congratulations for a very unusual rifle!
Cheers,

Ruy

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on March 25, 2005 03:34 pm

Cristian,

The Berthier Modèle 07/15 M34 was a stop-gap measure, intended to provide the French infantry with a short rifle (about the lenght of the projected new MAS rifle or more less the same as a Kar.98K) chambering the then new 7,5x54 MAS round, first adopted in the FM 24/29 light machine-gun, the new MAS 36 could be distributed to the troops. The M 07/15 M34 was heavily modified, so that it could use Mauser-style charge clips. The barrels were changed and a new, also Mauser-type, five-round magazine was fitted beneath the action. The conversion was lenghty and expensive. The number of Berthiers actually converted was relatively small when the MAS 36 production program started (that also why lots of 8mm Lebel guns remained in use through World War II...). The MAS 36 production was resumed shortly after the liberation of France and the "emergency" converted M34 was rapidly forgotten.
By the way, the M 97/15 M34's captured by the Germans after the French defeat were duly impressed into second-line duty. The rifle was known in German service as "7.5mm Gew.241(f)".

Ruy

Extraordinary info ,Ruy! By chance, do you know what Orman means?Could be that variation treated as military rifle, being used only by Forestry service?
Anyway, I think Suburban can not include it in a romanian rifles collection.

This rifle will definetelly not become part of the Romanian collection and I do not have any intention of starting a Turkish collection... I have seen "proper" French Berthiers at gun shows selling for around $100 and now I really am considering buying one. As for this one, I'll probably end up selling it.
I think the best use for this rifle would be as a wall hanger, in a cootage or cabin.

Cristian,

I think that "Orman" is the name of the Turkish arsenal on which the conversion was performed. In a certain sense, and given the state of militarization witnessed by the modern Turkish state since its creation by Mustafa Kemal (aka Atatürk), I think that the rifle can be considered a military one. At least it started life as such and it retained the basic features of a military bolt-action. Notice that the stock wasn't modified at all to look "civilian" (which could have been done by sporterizing the original or by fitting a new one).
As for the rest, of course not, I don't think either that Suburban can include it in a collection of military Romanian rifles...

Suburban, on the other hand, and even if you don't want to start a "Turkish collection" (a very interesting field, I can assure you - please take a look at this Enfield-Mauser: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/cruffler/tu...user_hybrid.htm ), the Berthier variation you got is scarce on this side of the Atlantic, so my advise would be: don't sell it, especially if the bore is in good condition. Btw, how's the blue? And the stock? It is Ok or does it show too much abuse, like in some South American rifles? The condition of the rifles must be taken into consideration. If you can find first another of these Turkish oddties in mint state, then I think you could sell the one you already have. But of course, this is just my opinion.
Cheers,

Ruy

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on March 31, 2005 01:23 pm

At the beginning of the war, Romania had 50,000 pieces of mod 1912 Steyr pistols, 11,189 pieces of 1882(1986) model St. Etienne revolvers, and, durring 1914-16,a number of 75,088 Pieper Bayard M-le1915 revolvers and 19,500 S&W spanish copies (1916 grip marked,only the romanian order has that characteristic)

Sorry, rectified:1892(1896) StEtienne revolvers

Cristian

Very interesting information! When you mention the Spanish-made S&W copies, I suppose these must have been hinged-frame revolvers like those purchased (in tens of thousands) by the British army during the Great War in .455 Webley.
These revolvers were ordered to prevent the shortage of handguns in the British army during the World War One – apparently, the ability of the British industry to produce handguns wasn’t enough to cope with the huge demand from the front for Webley & Scott semi-auto pistols (used mostly by the Royal Navy) and Webley revolvers (the standard model was the Mk. VI)… As a matter of fact, several countries such as Greece, Portugal, Serbia, Romania, and, of course, the United Kingdom and France used Spanish-built revolvers during World War I. Even the Russians ordered revolvers made in Eibar (a town in the Basque region), the capital of Spanish handgun making until the emergence of new companies in the 20’s.

The Spanish S&W copies were known in the British military jargon as “Old Pattern” revolvers, to distinguish them from the indigenous Webley models then in use.
The Romanian revolvers marked “1916” on the grips were most certainly manufactured by Trocaola Aranzabal y Cía., from Eibar, one of the two Spanish gun makers to receive contracts from the British army during war (the other being Garate, Antiua y Cía., also from Eibar). The British service “Old Pattern” No.2 Mk. I Trocaola Aranzabal .455 revolver has grips made from an early form of plastic, with diamond checkering, marked “1914” (on both sides). By contrast, the much more numerous revolvers made by Garate, Antiua y Cía. – known as “Old Pattern” No.1 Mk. I Garate service revolver – had dark horn grips, with a beautiful monogram, but no year marking at all.

If you could inspect a Spanish-made S&W Romanian revolver "in the flesh", it would be easy to solve the manufacturer ID riddle. Anyway, and in face of what is known from the British guns, I am prone to think that the Romanian Army ordered their hinged-frame S&W Spanish copies from Trocaola Aranzabal y Cia... By the way, do you know the calibre of the guns?
Cheers,

Ruy