Light Weapons in Romanian Service

Yes, it is a MK 4. Any posibility Romanians used non Steyr ones such as this one?
Because it will be imposible to find an actual Romanian version.

The Romanian one have a short lever. I belive you still can find a genuine romanian on your antique market. After 1989 Romania sold alot of the old rifles (all tipes) found in military warehouses especialy on the north american market.No way to find one of these in private possesion in Romania !

There's just one small glitch - the production of the Mk IV started in 1888, an year after the markings in your gun, Suburban. Your rifle might well be a Mk III converted to Mk IV configuration somewhere between 1889/early Nineties. By the way, the calibre of your rifle must the .420 Enfield-Martini, which was introduced when the British army concluded that it needed a faster, smaller calibre bullet instead of the massive (a true man-stopper at close to mid range!), but slow .45 Martini.
Cristian is right, the Romanian Model 1879 rifles were manufactured by the Austrian firm O.E.W.G. The possibility of finding an original Romanian Peabody-Martini rifle in the U.S. is, in my opinion, much higher than in Europe although some exotic weapons do appear from time to time (eg, Turkish rifles). Good luck!

Ruy

Cristian,

I think that there's a couple of books which might be useful in what concerns the Spanish revolvers issue - and this includes the Bayard copies too.
If everything goes as planned, I will be able to get my copies within the next week. The titles are two classics written by a noted expert on Spanish small arms, Juan L. Calvó:

- with Eduardo Jiménez, “1840 - 1940 Cien Años de Pistolas y Revólveres Españoles” , author's edition, Pontevedra, 1993.

- "Revólveres y Pistolas en las Fuerzas Armadas Españolas, 1855 - 1955", author's edition, Barcelona, 2003.

There's also a third, now almost unobtainable title, "La Industria Armera Nacional, 1830-1940 - Fabricas, Privilegios, Patentes y Marcas” (Ego Ibarra, Eibar; 1997), which includes a comprehensive listing of more than 300 entries, with details on firms, manufacturers and patents.

Ruy

Ruy, you are a lucky guy! Maybe you'll solve "TAC or Orbea" contradiction.

Cristian, I would rather say half-lucky because the third book is, in some aspects, the most useful one in the trio, for it contains that impressive listing. It is also very difficult to get (I will try to locate a copy thanks to a friend from Bilbao, an historian interested in the industrial heritage of the Basque region; maybe she can help me finding the book...). I forgot to add that the title in question has more than 500 pages and a lot of information on both original designs and copies.
By the way, this is slightly off-topic, but interesting nevertheless: a well-known Spanish gun manufacturer - Star - exported some 9mm Modelo B pistols to Bulgaria in 1944. The Bulgarian contract Modelo B pistols imported to the U.S. bear a Bulgarian marking on the left part of the slide. I mentioned this, because some rumors on the export of Spanish pistols to Romania during the war popped up lately but remain unconfirmed.

Ruy

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/088...0483986-2922347

Maybe an interesting book,too

Thanks for the link! I don't know this book, only some articles by Mr. Gangarosa. However, I am told that no one, outside of the Spanish borders, managed to perform such a deep research as Juan L. Calvó...
I will ask some friends about the book you pointed out. The only thing that keeps me a bit wary of its contents is the high percentage of information on post-1945 developments, which quite understandable given the fact that the book main target is the U.S. shooting public (please take a look at Amazon's "inside the book" feature and you'll see what I mean).

Ruy

Also very interesting and comprehensive, albeit only about Astra...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/096...2936007-2556803
Quite highly priced, though!

" ...But the trend went further; smaller and smaller bores were being tested (mostly by Prof. Hebler, in Switzerland), and Italy was the first nation to adopt a *real* smallbore rifle cartridge, though Romania beat it, ultimately, by a few months with introducing also a whole rifle together with a fairly similar cartridge. We may confidently assume that Ferdinand von Mannlicher, the designer of the **Romanian M 1892 rifle, had snatched the idea directly from the Italians, who had given him and Mauser a _rimmed_ 6,5 cartridge in order that he might build his entry to the Italian service rifle contest around it."
(the rest of the article can be found at: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/history.html )

Is it true that the Romanians were the first to adopt the 6.5mm? That would be neat...
**Also just a note on the side, it appears that the author of the article got the name of the rifle wrong...he may have been reffering to the Mannlicher M 1893.

The Italians were actually the first, with their 6,5x52 round, designed for the Carcano rifle. The Romanians and the Dutch come close, but this was the general trend in the turn of the century. The most revolutionary cartridge to see service (for a very short period, though) was the .236 Lee (also known as 6x60 Lee Navy)...

Suburban, in fact it was a 1892 model.The romanian government made the first order of 5000 units in 1891 at Steyr plant.It was followed by the second order of 3000 units in 1892. Both orders arrived in Romania in 1892, when the rifle was adopted by the romanian government as "arma , model 1892 , cal.6,5 mm"(no need to translate ).After a study of a romanian commission of Ministry of War,some modifications were required to the producers from Steyr (the rear sight, the ejector,the head of the bolt and the bolt stop),wich leaded to the Romanian 1893 model rifle in 6,5mm caliber.
If we consider the order date(1891) we can say Romania had one of the most perfectioned service rifle at that date in Europe.

The romanian Henry Martini for sale

http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/RiflesMartini.html
the second gun on the list

Has anybody heard about romanian Anti-Tank-Rifles? Did the Romanian army have any ATRs in use in ww2? I've heard of some 'm36', which had a caliber of 20mm. That's what I call a rifle! But is the whole weapon made-up?

-the FINN

http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/Pictures/arc_0348g.JPG

The socket bayonet is not the real M. 79 Romanian pattern. The Romanian M.79 bayonet that equipped the M.79 Henry-Martini rifle was a copy of the French M. 74 “epee”-bayonet of the M.74 “Gras” rifle. See bellow in the drawing made by A. Potocky in 1920s how the bayonet was attached to the M.79 Henry-Martini rifle.



The French M.74 Gras bayonet:

http://www.oldrifles.com/fre-bay.htm