Farman Goliath in ARR service?

According to my data first two Breguets 19 were delivered to Romania in 1928.

Woj,

According to Portuguese intelligence data from Ministry of War, Romania received a "small number of Breguet XIX in 1928"!!

Dénes,

Thanks for showing us the photo - nice one! The aircraft looks suspiciously like a bomber converted into a transport, or maybe it is a military transport. The nose seems to have a plinth for a gunner/observer, with its open post ready to receive a scarff ring and machine guns.

Ruy

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on April 12, 2005 07:53 am

Hmmm... the mystery gets even more interesting. With a type designation starting at F.16(?), it can be a Goliath of the F.160 series - let's take a look at the possibilities:

- F.160B4 (1928) - four seat bomber, only one prototype built. Engines: Gnome & Rhône 9Aks 480hp radials. Seems a bit unlikely too.
- F.161 "Goliath" (1928) - civilian transport, powered by n-line 500 hp Farman 12Wers engines Only one built. Not at all.
- F.161B4 (1930) - heavy bomber, with compressed in-line 500 hp Farman 12Wers engines. One prototype only. Unlikely.
- F.162 "Goliath" (1930) - civilian transport, with two Gnome & Rhône 9Akx, developing 480hp. One prototype built. ???
- F.163 "Goliath" (1928) - civilian transport, with two Gnome & Rhône 9Aa -380hp. One single aircraft built. ???
- F.165 (1927) - totally unlikely, since this was a torpedo floatplane built for the French Aeronautique Navale - 41 aircraft.
- F.167 (1928) - also totally unlikely. This was a one-off torpedo bomber floatplane, with repliable wings.
- F. 168 (1928) - five torpedo and classic naval bomber (floatplane). 200 built for the French Aeronautique Navale. Not at all!
- F. 169 (1929) - civilian transport, with 480hp Gnome & Rhône 9Akx radial engines. One aircraft built. ???

We are left with very few possibilities. Maybe one of the transport prototypes was sold to Romania.

Ruy

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on April 12, 2005 08:17 am

Vladimir Kotelnikov probably got his numbers from French sources, as I suggested earlier. So, apparently, and if he is right, the first Breguet 19's actually received by the A.R.R. were 19.7's (possibly with Hispano-Suiza 12b engines, like Yugoslav machines).
I thought that 50 was already a bit too much, but 108??!!!... That's a wild exageration.

Ruy

The plot thickens.

CV-FAR is given by a recent Rumanian publication as 'Farman F.60 Goliath', which I believe is erroneous. However, by using a magnifying glass I think I might read F.168 BN3, but it's not 100% sure.

C-REGA is a different type (see front of fuselage). Could it be the sole F.169 transport prototype?

At some point, knowledgeable French historians must be involved in solving this issue.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. Thanks for the delivery year of the Bre.19s. However, the same type was also ordered by a civilian organization, ARPA, for long-range sports raids. Probably those were the ones arriving to Rumania in 1930.
Any details of the total number of Bre.19s exported to Rumania?

Yes, it is getting thicker and murkier!

However, to identify CV-FAR as simply "Farman F.60" is a good example of the misuse of a general designation. Only the first machines in the big "Goliath" family were named as such. CV-FAR is a later civilian transport type and it strikes me as a very strange thing to imagine it marked as a "BN3"! But after years researching aviation subjects, some of them quite obscure, I tend to keep whenever possible an open minded approach.

As for C-REGA, it can be perfectly be a civilian transport converted to military use in Romania. And yes, it can be the F.169 prototype. I will ask my friend José Miguel Sales and some of my French contacts opinions about the riddle. Will post the results of my enquiries as soon as possible.

Ruy

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on April 14, 2005 10:38 am

Dénes, you are right.
I also examined one of the CV-FAR photos closely, and I also think I might read "F.168 BN3", which is astonishing to say the least, although, as you, I am not totally sure. But the "BN3" sub-designation seems indeed to be there! The only possibility I can think of right now - before getting any further details from my friends - is some sort of conversion performed on a "regular" F.168 (something very strange to say the least since the later was a military floatplane...), providing the a/c with a land undercarriage and a completely new fuselage!! Weird, weird...

Ruy

Well gentlemen, I got some fresh news from Mr. Morareau. And these are quite revealing, to say the least.

In first place, CV-FAR is in fact a Farman F.63bis, specially built for Romania out of the ten machines built in France for civilian use. It does look like a member of the later 160 series, because it was unique among all the "Goliath" family in that it had an enclosed canopy of modern design.
However, and in what concerns C-REGA, we are still sailing through dense fog... Certain features, such as the small fin, the "balcony" nose, two-bladed propellers, etc, made it look a lot like the F.165's used by the French Navy. On the other hand, the fuselage windows seem to point towars some sort of civilian usage (or military transport). Still according to Monsieur Morareau, it could be a type 68 built for Poland, suitably modified, but not at all an F.168 (and the same applies, of course, to CV-FAR). One can see the similarity between C-REGA and the version sold to Poland at the following link http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafika:Farman-goliath.jpg

Ruy

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on April 19, 2005 05:01 pm

Thanks Ruy - and, indirectly, Mons. Morareau - for the new info.

However, how can the airplane's type, painted on the rudder by the French manufacturer, be then explained?

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 16, 2005 08:34 pm

You are welcome.
As for the rest, I can say, that's a damn good question!
I was wondering myself about the same issue immediately after I got the answer from M. Morareau. However, the rudder could have been painted at some stage in Toussus (where the Farman company had its headquarters and the main factory) in the F.168 assembly line and then added to the uniquely modified F.63bis CV-FAR airframe. Of course, this is only an educated guess, and quite unlikely to be honest...
I am still waiting for more details from José Sales.

Ruy

In the meantime, I will also search amidst the old French aviation magazines and books from the inter-war era in the library of a old friend of my father.

Ruy

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on April 16, 2005 11:12 pm

Here is the scan of an original postcard, showing a Polish Farman F.68 on Dübendorf airfield, Switzerland, with the occasion of the International Flugmeeting, 1937.

Gen. Dénes

It looks the part...
A Polish F.68 might well have been the basis for C-REGA. Besides, the fuselage was roomy enough to allow for the conversion into a transport machine.

Ruy

Off-topic discussion moved here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1438

As far as I know some of the Polish Goliaths were sold to Romania when Poland resigned from using them (Polish air force doctrine was changed after 1926 "coup d'etat"). Probably 7 planes. It caused small international incident, as France has sold these planes to Poland with restriction that they won't be sold to the third coutry.
Source: J.B.Cynk, Samolot bombowy PZL P-37 Los, page 21.
Book also says that the last Polish Goliath was scraped in 1935, so the photo posted here should be earlier than 1937.
Cheers!
G.

This post has been edited by GrzeM on July 22, 2005 01:44 am