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> Kassa (Kosice) - 26 June 1941
woj
Posted: November 15, 2004 07:18 am
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Do you know how many ex-Polish PZL P.37 Elk bombers took part in the air raid over Kosice (Kassa) 26 June 1941? In Polish literature I couldn't find undoubtful information - just data from three to more than ten Elks.
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Victor
Posted: November 15, 2004 07:27 am
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That raid is just a myth, which unfortunately keeps on going. No ARR bombers took part in it.
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woj
Posted: November 15, 2004 07:52 am
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QUOTE (Victor @ Nov 15 2004, 08:27 AM)
That raid is just a myth, which unfortunately keeps on going. No ARR bombers took part in it.


Really!? Could you write anything more, please!

This post has been edited by woj on November 15, 2004 07:52 am
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Dénes
Posted: November 15, 2004 03:42 pm
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Victor is right. There is no proof at all sustaining the version that Rumanian P.Z.L. P.37 'Los' bombers were the perpetrators.

There is no final and irrefutable proof of who bombed the city of Kassa - from 1938 to 1945 part of Northern Hungary, today known as Košice, Slovakia - on June 26, 1941. As you may know, this was the casus belli for Hungary to enter the war against the Soviet Union.

However, unexploded bombs and pieces of bomb straps found on the site all point towards Soviet origin.
Presumably, the trio of Soviet bombers bombed Kassa in error, either due to a navigation error, or believing that Kassa was part of Slovakia, country the USSR was at war with.

Lt. Col. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 15, 2004 03:43 pm
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dragos
Posted: June 19, 2005 01:32 pm
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Some information on Kosice incident I have found in RIM 5(11)/1991.

On 26 June 1941, 13.08 hours, three aircraft without identification marks hit Kosice, dropping 29 100kg bombs. After the bombing, the three aircraft headed south-east, without being countered by AAA or aircraft.

There were several versions of this incidend that were circulated by 1991:
- a trainer from the officers flight school of Kosice transmited to his superiors that the bombardment was carried out by the German airforce (version Adam Krudy)
- the bombardment was carried out by the Soviet airforce (version of Hungarian and German military forums)
- the aircraft were Romanian and the bombardment was ordered by Ion Antonescu (version Olvedi Ignacz).

In June 1991, the debate on this incident was reopened during a historians' assembly in Budapest. After the discussions, two versions remained prominent: one of the Canadian Joseph Ormay, the other of the Soviet Colonel V.I. Fomin.

According to Joseph Ormay, the attack upon Kosice was carried out by the Soviets. As evidences: on an unexploded bomb and on shell fragments were inscribed the name of the "Putilov" factories as the manifacturer of the bombs, and also their characteristics in Cyrillic. Also, the bombers of that time that could accomodate in their racks 100kg bombs were almost exclusively of Soviet origin, with the exception of 44 aircraft sold to Czechoslovakia in 1938.

V.I. Fomin tried to refute the affirmations of Ormay, in an article published in "Krasnaia Zvezda" on 30 July 1991, claiming that:
- the Putilov factories did not carried this name since 1921
- the photodocuments used by Ormay came from American sources
- in the flight journals and the reports of the Soviet airmen there is no mentioning of a mission having as target Kosice
- the airforce of the Soviet armies and fronts did not have the capability of reaching Kosice.
In conclusion, he stated that the aircraft that bombed Kosice on 26 June 1941 are Romanian, backing his claim with a confession of Colonel Ion Cernaianu (at the time he was a POW in Russia).

However, in order to reach Kosice, Romanian bombers would have had to navigate due north-west, over the Hungarian controlled territory and over Hungary itself, with little chances of getting away unspotted or unchecked. In order to avoid the Hungarian air space, the Romanian bombers would have had an approximate route like Bucharest - Suceava - Cernauti - Kosice, but this was beyond the range of the Romanian bombers.
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sid guttridge
Posted: June 19, 2005 02:15 pm
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Hi Guys,

I would suggest that the working assumption in all these cases of unexplained bombing of neutral countries should always be that they are acidents unless proven otherwise. This is especially true when, like Kassa/Kosice, the target is close to an international border with a belligerent - Slovakia in this case.

The Romanian angle is particularly unlikely. Hitler spent the entire war trying to stop Hungary and Romania coming to blows. He was hardly likely to risk it at the start of his most important campaign. There was far more to lose than to gain by riking using Romanian (or indeed German) aircrew.

My feeling is that the raid was probably intended by the USSR as retaliation on Slovakia for its declaration of war a couple of days earlier. The first Slovak forces clashed with the Red Army on the same day as the raid. The Red Air Force also parachuited some saboteurs into Slovakia on subsequent days.

Cheers,

Sid.
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dragos
Posted: June 19, 2005 02:24 pm
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Being excused for my lack of knowledge in the field of aviation history, can the scenario of Germans being the authors of a staging be taken into account?

What was the fate of the Soviet aircraft sold to Czechoslovakia in 1938? Were they seized by the Germans?
Also, could the Germans have some old 100kg bombs of Soviet origin, if indeed the Leningrad factories did not produce bombs with "Putilov" inscribed on them since 1921 ?
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Ruy Aballe
Posted: June 20, 2005 12:20 pm
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Interesting thread...
Dragos, the Czechslovak A.F. actually got the licence for building the Tupolev SB-2M100 under licence free of charge after the purchase of Soviet-made bombers. The SB's - both the ones delivered by the Russians and those built by Avia were designated B.71. Many were incorporated into the Luftwaffe, while some were sold later by the Germans to the Bulgarian air arm. It must be noted that the production of the B.71 continued under German occupation (by mid-1940, 111 had been built).
Most of the machines impressed into German use were employed in auxiliary tasks; the majority were used as target tows.

Interestingly, author Mikhail Maslov (in his book "Tupolev SB: Soviet high speed bomber", Icarus Aviation Press, Old Saybrook, 2004 - ISBN: 0-9724527-1-0) mentions the use of B.71's in covert operations by the Germans - p.128/129:
"In addition to target towing and limited use as a training aircraft, the B-71 also saw employment in another area. As far back as the summer of 1941 Soviet pilots and ground observers noted unidentified single SB's carrying out reconnaissance missions over the front line. In 1942, when no serviceable captured SB's were left, representatives of the Abwehr asked for several B-71's, which were most probably used for reconnaissance missions and for parachuting saboteurs into Soviet territory".

As for the Putilov works, they were the foremost industrial conglomerate in the Russian Empire between the late XIX and early XX century. The Putilov company manufactured arms for the Russian army and a wide range of heavy industrial equipment (like machine tools) for civilian and military use. It was intimately linked to the development of modern industrial capitalism in tsarist Russia. The name of the company was thus abandoned under early Bolshevik rule.
On the other hand, the idea of the Germans having old Russian-made (manufactured before 1921) bombs at hand seems a bit unlikely...
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sid guttridge
Posted: June 20, 2005 01:01 pm
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Hi Dragos,

While nothing can absolutely be ruled out, this doesn't mean that any of the "provocateur" alternatives are as plausible as a straightforward accident.

Less than three years before Kassa/Kosice had been in Slovakia, which had declared war on the USSR a couple of days earlier and whose border ran only a few kilometres from the city.

When the Hungarians attacked the USSR in 1941 they apparently initially used 25-year-old Austro-Hungarian maps. It is not impossible that the Red Air Force still had three year old maps in use marking Kosice/Kassa as still Slovak.

We know that the Red Air Force operated over Slovakia at this time because it parachuted in saboteurs and agents.

Other air forces made similar errors. Both the British and Americans, for example, bombed Swiss towns by accident.

I am a firm believer in the cock-up, rather than conspiracy, theory of history. I would suggest that conspiracy should only be preferred as an explanation where there is hard evidence. In this case there is none that is not circumstantial.

The most important point is that, whatever the cause, this minor and unexplained incident was all the excuse it took for Hungary to enter the war. If the political will for war had been lacking, the Hungarians could easily have decided to treat it as an accident, as the Swiss did when bombed far more severely by the British and Americans.

Cheers,

Sid.





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dragos
Posted: June 20, 2005 01:51 pm
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QUOTE (Sid)
I would suggest that conspiracy should only be preferred as an explanation where there is hard evidence. In this case there is none that is not circumstantial.


I agree.

But moreover, the allegation of Romania being the author of the incident lacks any reasoning, as it would not benefit in any way from the act of Hungary entering the war on the German side, as it happened.
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sid guttridge
Posted: June 20, 2005 03:28 pm
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Hi Dragos,

Very good point. The less credit that Hungary gained with an apparently victorious Germany, the better for a Romania that hoped to reverse the German-sponsored Vienna Award of Northern Transilvania to Hungary. Thus it was not in Romania's interest for Hungary to enter the war against the USSR, assuming, of course, that Germany was going to win.

Cheers,

Sid.
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mirekw
Posted: June 25, 2005 10:26 am
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The strong belive in attack of 3 PZL P.37 on Hungary and second option: German Avia B.71 with German crew is astonish.

Most of discutants do not want to see that in spite of bomb attrack was also a fighter attack on Hunagrian express train (3 fighters were similar to I-16 - killed and wonded Hungarian), and according range standards the attakers could eaisly achived these targets over Hungary.
See "Hungarian Eagles" by Sarhidai, Punka, Kozlik before you begin to talk!

Rumanian did have any special secret reason to attack Hunagary and push it to war against Germany.

German had such an intersts but to make such a clandestine operation using ex Czachoslovak planes, it is also strange and nonsens. It also could be done by He 111, Ju 88 ect. After the war when much more German secrets have surfaced also this one could be told. You should know that to send 3 bombers it need crews and serviceman and commands ect. At least one of such team members after years could say about this top secrets. Aslo over flew from German territory to advanced pont this German Avia B.71 ect. Plane like a bomber is not any needle! He needs petrol, mainaince, ect.

In my opinion 3 Soviet SB by accident strayed from the course and bombed what they thought was Rumanian (enemy area). They even after attack probably reported about succes agains Rumanian territory.

Most of you demands from average Soviet crews & planes (equippment) overnormal percieptions and hight orientations over enemy territory. You should know there were no any GPS, cellarphone ect.

Second: Soviets in June/July 1941 were in process to attack former Ally _Germany, Rumania. They were prepared to attack on enemy targets it is aslo possible taht such attack was smal parts of this plans and the Soviet misundrestand on their maps the Rumanian targets.

So it happend what had happend.

At last on 29 VI 41 Hungarian CR.42 of 2/3 squadron over Csap had claimed shot down 3 of 7 Soviet's SB over Hungarian territory. So it is possible for Soviet to attack Hungary.

Reagrds
Mirek Wawrzyński
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sid guttridge
Posted: June 26, 2005 05:37 pm
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Hi MirekW,

I agree with the logic of your post, with one exception. I think that if it was an accident the target was more likely to have been Slovakia than Romania. It would have required only a small navigational error to hit Kosice/Kassa instead of Slovak territory, but a much larger navigational error if the real target was in Romania, (Remember that the 1941 Romanian-Hungarian border was not where it had been in 1940 or was again from late 1944. In June 1941 the Romanian border was much further south and east of Kosice.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Dénes
Posted: June 26, 2005 06:50 pm
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I agree with Mirek's opinion as well as Sid's addition.

This is what I also wrote, a while ago (see my post above):
QUOTE
Presumably, the trio of Soviet bombers bombed Kassa in error, either due to a navigation error, or believing that Kassa was part of Slovakia, country the USSR was at war with.


Gen. Dénes
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dragos
Posted: June 26, 2005 08:32 pm
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It would be interesting to find out the bombing missions of VVS for 26 June 1941. Is this kind of information available?
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