Tank markings

Below is the rear cover, with the mentioned strange camouflage scheme of a Rumanian R-2 tank during the anti-Axis campaign.

Gen. Dénes

Attached Image

I have seen a picture of this red star marking in a white circle in "The Eastern Front, Armour Camouflage and Markings, 1941-1945" by Steven J. Zaloga and James Grandsen. The book is published by Arms and Armour Press. The marking is on a Romanian R-35 tank rearmed with a 45mm. It says that the red star in a white circle was the national marking used by the 2nd Tank Regiment during the fighting in Tchécoslovaquia in 44-45 against the Germans.

The star inside the circle was tan or khaki (the same color of the vehicle coating), not red.

Here is a picture of a R-34/45 during the Campaign in the West:


Source: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/romania...ania-tanks.html

Also the royal badge on the turret side and the serial number are not black, but yellow. See the proper colors here:


Photo: Dragos Pusca

How do we know this photo actually shows a tank in Rumanian service?

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 12, 2005 02:25 pm

On a photo that shows a military parade in 1941, in Bucharest, the royal crest on the turret and the serial number appear to be of a different colour than the yellow of the Michael's Cross. They could very well be black or grey.

Because the museum exhibit is painted in a certain way, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's historically accurate, too.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 12, 2005 02:26 pm

On a photo that shows a military parade in 1941, in Bucharest, the royal crest on the turret and the serial number appear to be of a different colour than the yellow of the Michael's Cross. They could very well be black or grey.

Because the museum exhibit is painted in a certain way, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's historically accurate, too.

Gen. Dénes

Yeah, isn't the Ju-88 in the U.S. painted incorrectly?

It's funny that in Armata Romana 1941-45, on the same page where it states that the Royal insignia and the serial number (Sr. 87 in this case) were yellow, there is a photo (probably the one mentioned by Denes) in which these are clearly painted with a dark color, possibly black.

How do we know this photo actually shows a tank in Rumanian service?

Gen. Dénes

Because it is a Vanatorul de care R-35 (transformat), which was used during the battles in Czechoslovakia and Austria, and the few surviving R-35 or R-35/45 were scrapped in 1946-47.

According to "Armata Romana 1941-1945", RAI, 1996, the royal crest on the right side of the turret was painted in yellow but sometimes in red. The same must be true for the serial number (when darker than the coating in b/w photos, must be in red).

How do we know this photo actually shows a tank in Rumanian service?

Gen. Dénes

Because it is a Vanatorul de care R-35 (transformat), which was used during the battles in Czechoslovakia and Austria, and the few surviving R-35 or R-35/45 were scrapped in 1946-47.

Thanks, but I knew that.

My point was that if a Rumanian tank wears non-Rumanian markings, i.e. the markings of its ally, the Red Star, one could assume that the personnel is not Rumanian either, i.e. that particular tank was taken over by the Soviet Army and used for reconnaissance purposes, for example.

If I would see, for example, a photo of an I.A.R. 80 sporting Red Stars (in 1944/1945), I'd assume the pilot is not Rumanian and the airplane is in VVS service.

Just a possibility.

According to "Armata Romana 1941-1945", RAI, 1996, the royal crest on the right side of the turret was painted in yellow but sometimes in red. The same must be true for the serial number (when darker than the coating in b/w photos, must be in red).

See Victor's previous post.
I will have to check the photos I have and see the shade of the turret crest and serial number.
There are no musts in camouflages and markings...

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 12, 2005 09:04 pm

But mustn’t be…?

I think that in this matter the German army itself was very much an exception (due, at least partly, to the numerous types of captured equipment employed) but I don’t know if this kind of situations ever occurred in the British or the American armies (the later being, in my knowledge, the model of standardization during WW 2). I think the Romanian army was just the opposite…

As for wearing other national markings INSTEAD of the Romanian ones, as Denes said, note that in the photo from the Czech book the tank ALSO wear the Romanian roundels. Very strange indeed… but I don't know about the R 35/44 from the photo posted by Dragos, where there are not such (visible) roundels. I also cannot judge the veridicity of the representation from the Czech book, since it presents a drawing and not a photo. However, could this double marking mean “Romanian troops under Russian command”? As I know the 2nd Tank Regiment was under immediate Russian command during the fights from 1945.

This post has been edited by Agarici on April 13, 2005 07:06 am

I don't see any rom. roundels on the picture posted by Dragos with R35/45. Probably you mean the roundels on the R-2 Skoda color profile ( posted by Denes )together with that strange red star on white spot. I doubt that the czech authors used a B/W picture for that strange marks. I didn't see any documents for changing the romanian roundels with red star on western front. It was still a monarchy in '45 ( next year the tanks in parade wear the crown emblem).
One posible reason for R-35/45 with white dot with star ( inside the star it looks the same green color as the rest of the tank) could be that was used in a rom. unit under soviet command like "Tudor Vladimirescu" or Horia Closca si Crisan".


Dan.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 13, 2005 06:26 am

I don't see any rom. roundels on the picture posted by Dragos with R35/45. Probably you mean the roundels on the R-2 Skoda color profile ( posted by Denes )together with that strange red star on white spot. I doubt that the czech authors used a B/W picture for that strange marks. I didn't see any documents for changing the romanian roundels with red star on western front. It was still a monarchy in '45 ( next year the tanks in parade wear the crown emblem).
One posible reason for R-35/45 with white dot with star ( inside the star it looks the same green color as the rest of the tank) could be that was used in a rom. unit under soviet command like "Tudor Vladimirescu" or Horia Closca si Crisan".


Dan.

You're right, Cantacuzino, my mistake. I edited my previous post...

Agarici: <quote>
"And another interesting thing: in a military history book published before 1989 there is a picture with a Skoda R 2 tank with a leopard-type camouflage very close to the French type in which some of the R 35 were painted; the photo was dated sometime in 1942 or 1943. It could have been a Winter-time cammo (as that painted to some of the IAR 39 during the 1941-1942 Winter) but it looked too elaborated for that…"

Dragos: <quote>
"This sounds like the original Czechoslovakian camouflage."
[see “Why R-35 takns with French cammo?, Strange camo for rom. R-35 tanks” topic]


It sure looked more like the Czech original cammo model then the Romanian one - the photo from the rear cover of the book presented by Denes - see “Skoda R 2 (Romanian Skoda vz. 35 tank)” topic. The photo was taken from the side and is black and white, but the spots look bigger and clearly defined. Maybe in the book Denes presents us the image shows the winter (temporary) camouflage - painting discontinuous stripes (and spots) in lime on the vehicle carcass.

Did (some) of the originally imported R 2 tanks wore this type of cammo (and were they employed as such by the Romanian army)? Or maybe they were the tanks imported from the Germans in the beginning of 1942 as replacements for the losses from 1941 campaign? Did the Germans use this type of cammo for the Skodas vz. 35 employed by them?

Denes, the tanks from the front page of the Czech book you have shown us are considered by the authors to be in Czech or in Romanian service? The cammo scheme is identical to that presented by Dragos and apparently similar to the one from the photo I was talking about.