Dresden Bombing. Holocaust?

Hi Chutzpah,

Yup. The US could surrender right now to al Qaeda. But why? It is hardly in imminent danger of defeat, is it?

No. Declaring US cities "Open" would not offer any protection against al Qaeda, as al Qaeda is not a contracting party to any international treaties, agreements, accords, conventions, etc., because it isn't actually a national entity. This has been explained above already.

Sorry. You are wrong again. I very definitely did specify what period I was talking about regarding the German move against Budapest being in March 1944. For example, check my post of Jun 13 2006, 1210 pm. (I accept your apology for having overlooked that in advance, in order to spare you the embarrassment of having to make it.) [As a matter of interest, why on earth were you making definitive declarations on a subject that was, by your own admission, so obscure to you? If in doubt, ask.]

The Hungarians were considering declaring Budapest an "Open" city in March 1944 through fear of Western Allied bombing, which was already hitting nearby Vienna. On the night of 18/19 March, at the very moment the Germans were about to move into Hungary, there was a Vienna air raid alert. About a fortnight after the German occupation Budapest suffered its first raid.

I am glad you asked me my own question. I have no idea what the acceptable level of civilian casualties was to hit Dresden's 127 war factories, its 20-odd military installations, its assorted railway junctions, etc. That was why I asked you, in view of your very definite views on the subject.

In my experience, only a complete pacifist can answer that one definitively. He would say none, because all killing is wrong.

Now, assuming you are not a pacifist, perhaps you would care to answer the question at the second time of asking? After all, you seem absolutely convinced that 35,000-40,000 fatalities was too many. OK. Offer a lower alternative and explain why not one more or less?

Of course you can't do that, because for all your righteous indignation at civilian losses, there is no definitive answer beyond that offered by pacifists. We who are not absolute pacifists are in an area of moral compromise, not definitive answers.

Must go prematurely,

Sid.

P.S. I knew there was something important I had missed. Where in the 1907 Hague Convention does it mention anything about an "Open" city needing to be facing imminent occupation by an enemy army? I can find you where it says that a local armistice can be reached within an agreed radius, but nothing about "imminent occupation". Please clarify.

Sid.

Sid, really now, the guy was banned, why are you still trying to impose your point of view when he cannot answer back? The decent thing to do wouldve been to leave it like it ended. But no.......

Hi Imp,

Regretably I am not psychic, so I was unaware that Chutzpah had been banned (and not from his first site, if I am not mistaken).

But anyway, why should that disqualify me from replying?

The "decent" thing is to put the facts across. It would have been "indecent" to leave a misleading thread unanswered.

Anyway, have you something substantive to add to this thread or shall we let it lie dormant?

Cheers,

Sid.

It is written right under his nickname.

I said all I had to say.

Hi Imp.

Why, so it is. I never look at the side bars because they don't generally change. I am just interested in the text, which still has to be addressed whether someone is banned or not.

Cheers,

Sid.

Heh,you are really funny today,Sid.

Yes, but I am talking about addressing him, and moreover asking him:

And then adding

Obviously he cant, he is banned.

Please get back to discussing the topic.

I think the allies posed as saviours of all the countries the Nazis were occupying, and who, apart from small groups of crazy fascists, didn't want to be governed by the Third Reich, and be slaves of the 'Master Race'.
It is not so much just killing civilians in itself that the Germans were condemned for, as for waging mindless aggressive war and ruining Europe. They also killed civilians in far greater quantities than the Western Allies ever did, especially Jews, Polish and Russian people. The people who died in Dresden must be set against the 6,000,000 jews, estimated 20,000,000 Russian and Polish civilians the Germans killed etc.
Also, no other country, as far as I can tell, would have had a place in Europe after a Nazi victory, even the Third Reich's allies. They would all have just been subordinate vassals of the Nazis.
I sometimes suspect that people use Dresden as a tool in trying to 'rehabilitate' in some way Nazi Germany and the Third Reich, or to pretend that Nazis were really just a bit misunderstood... Would so many civilians have died needlessly if any other German government had been in power?

There might be another Possibility for all of you to consider. One that no one has taught about...

The Allies felt that the Germans are expansionist by Nature...and that there are too many of them anyways. For centuries they had been dreaming of lebensraum in Russia (Deutsches Osten,.. German East..etc) in order to settle excess german poppulation. This meant that the poppulation of Germany and all the Germans living in Poland, Sudetenland etc etc...was far in excess then the country had room for them.

Now with the war in its final stages... the Reich shrinking, and the territories being Anexed by all the winning powers bent on revenge... taking german land from all sides.. Russians in the east, Poles and Czecks...and the French in the west etc...
and all the germans from the east seeking refuge inside of germany .. (all the millions who were expelled from Prussia, [not to mention the millions killed in Prussia and the nearly 40,000 killed by lunatic Czechs in revenge killings).

The Allies wanted to Depoppulate Germany. Period.
-They did that through the Bombing of Cities
-They did that through famine after the war
-They did that by handing over untold numbers of German prisoners of war - to the russians (one way trip, and no return home)
-They killed as many germans as they could, and did not help those that were dieing of hunger, disease, homeless, refugees, war wounded, and regular prisoners of war - millions which were in their hand.

I have read books by a controversial author named James Bacque -
One is called "Crimes and Mercies" - the fate of German civilians under allied occupation
The other is called "Other Losses", Eisenhower's Death Camps.
Tens of thousands of prisoners were killed on purpose or just left to die under the direct orders of the US army HQ particularly Eisenhower. There was plenty of Food in 1945 Europe. Just 'not availabe' for the Kraut Nazis.

I read a soldier's memoirs as he was on leave from the front in 1943, in Magdeburg near Berlin,..at night when the bombs started to fall - After the screeming of peoples had died out, the rescue services came to pick up the survivors from under the rubble. Air raid sirens were sounding, Search light and flack shells exploding high above.
Soldiers including himself were ordered off the train to help the wounded.
10 minues later , the Ango American (Pigs) returned to bomb the same place again, in order to kill as many of the rescue service personel, knowing that this is the perfect time when when the wounded and and the Ghost faced survivors from the air raid shelters could be helped.

This was terror bombing indeed, and it did not start at Dresden, nor did it end there. It went on until the end of the war. A rather insignificant city like Pforzheim had 20,000 victims (dead) in one night.
Rotterdam bombed by Germans had less then 900. And it was not done to terrorize the poppulation, and the bombers were called off but could not.

The bottom line here is a conspiracy to lower the poppulation of germany by all means necessary. It was planned that way, and it was planned that after the war - the "Racist Germans" will be made tolerant of other breeds by bringing such volk into their country and raise future generations to accept others in same way the multicultural western world functions.
I believe Dresden was intentional, not an accident like some suggest, and the goal was to kill as many peoples as possible and destroy as much heritage and cultural buildings of this beautyfull town as possible. Whatever survivors remained after the war - they would not take their anger at the westernes who bombed their town, - because it would end up in the Russian zone of occupation anyways.

This post has been edited by Der Maresal on August 28, 2006 07:43 am

Der Maresal post is typical of somebody who refuses to accept the reality,

Germany started the Second World War, Germany lost the Second World War,

His posts read as somebody who has neo-nazi sympathies.

Bombing Campaigns were carried out against the Civil infrastructure sure, on both sides.

Anybody Remember the Nazi bombing of Coventry, Manchester, London etc...etc...

And I doubt if the Luftwaffe under FAT Herman were selectively picking military only targets in the Russian campaign. As I doubt the ss under Himler were targeting military only personel in the death camps.

Adolf tried it first and failed, Adolf lost and no matter what excuses you try to find the explanation is in the Nazi party itself, it was corrupt, its military were badly maintained, it lived on terror, including that of its own citizens.

And thankfully it will never be able to rise from its defeat again no matter what the little groups of neo-nazi want.

Kevin in Deva.

if you call it a war crime on one side then call it one on the other side as well. i'll wait to see just when "bomber harris" gets a "war criminal" label in UK schools.
i guess i'll have to wait a while tho...

You smelled me already as a "nazi sympathiser". You have a rather sensitive nose
Lets just say I dont sympathize with the CORRUPT western powers that won the war. Something is foul here and they lied and twisted history as they saw fit.

Britain and France won the bloody WW1, it was their reponsiblity to keep the peace in WW2, to do everything to prevent another war. Instead they went ahead and declared War - both of them. England went to war to save Poland's ass, and it did not declare war on Russia as well when It took half of Poland in 1939? Why not ?

Also the 2nd WW2 was inevitable and it would have happened anyways, no matter who started it. Every country was rearming, there was war already in China, and there had been rather heavy fighting in Spain previously.
The two sides were well 'polarized' - it was only a matter of time who fired the 1st shot. Hitler was not the most evil man to live in that time period, unlike Churchill or Harris and other *** of the democratic world, he actually left something behind, he built things too - while as the others only destroyed.
Get that in your head. And like I said before the Second World War would have occured weather Hitler invaded Poland or not. Are you trying to suggest to me that we would have had peace until today had Hitler been a pacifist and not attacked first ? WW2 was a timebomb waiting to explode. It happened to explode on 1/9/39

The Nazi party was not all that Corrupt. I can think other partyes that are way more corrupt. They are all located in your beloved free western democratic world.
I can only think of the American Elections of that time, with confetti and those stupid Straw hats everywhere.
The military was badly maintained ? What-the-hell-are-you-talking-about ?
... It was the best "" "" maintained "" "" army of it's time. It was an example for all the others. Ask the russians who entered romania in 1944 how well heir military were maintained. The average Mojhik from the lower ranks wanted a bottle of vodka, cigarettes and civilian clothes to get the hell out of the red army.. and were asking romanian peoples to provide them with these things. How can you even say the "nazis" had a badly maintained army, when they were getting the best equipment of any army before and during the war..
Lived on terror ? All systems live on terror. I live "in" terror not to get arrested by CISIS or FBI and chardged with being a Terrorist after 911, or sent to Guantanamo for Torture where ill be put in a monkey cage in orange suit or used as human mop to clean my own urine.
Nazis did not terrorize their own as much, or spy on their own as much as the Soviets did it to themselves and other countries they held in cluding romania, or the STASI who reported how you folded your underwear for example.. or even the Corrupt & terrorizing US system along with FEMA, CIA, FBI who spy on their own citizens and who are probably seeing what im typing right now and not liking it.
Tough - see if i care

This post has been edited by dragos on August 28, 2006 12:54 pm

Der Maresal, drop the offensive tone and watch the language.