Was Romania right to join the Axis?

[C-2]

Jews in the wermacht????? :?: :?: :shock: :shock:
Never heard of this!

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

The Poles remained on the Allied side, and I don't know their history. I only know that what the Germans annexed Pomerania from Poland, and that territory was a mix of Germans and Poles.

So you don't know about the Poles. Strike one.

QUOTE

As for the Bielorussians, the Germans had no interests to exterminate them, when some of them enrolled in the SS. With your logic, every people non-German would have been exterminated during WW2.

No amount of historical facts will convince you anyway. May I suggest something more actual and visual : look at the Russian movie "Idi i smatri" (sorry no cyrillics. "go & see") on Bielorussia [A Adamovitch - E Klimov]. Try it and don't tell me that any view of the world that doesn't match yours is Stalinist or Imperialistic propaganda. That trick is a bit worn out.

QUOTE

The Latvians were \"Balto-Slavs\" but they were not exterminated ; they fought along with the Germans against the Reds, and that in 1944. If the Nazis would have been so racist, why did the SS had battalions with blacks? Even Jews served in the Wehrmacht, so keep it down.

I'm keeping up don't worry. You clearly don't have any idea how the Baltic states population support or antagonism to the Germans evolved as the war dragged on. Sure some Latvians where fighting along with the Germans in 44. So did some Belgians and the French even defended the Fuhrer's bunker in 45. Doesn't mean that Petain or De Gaulle wanted an Iron Cross. Next time you will tell me that the holocaust is a Pravda invention.

QUOTE

Everyone? Everyone says that it's past and that's all. That doesn't mean that those countries do not purchase imperialist policies. Times have changed, and methods too.

France foreign policy in 2003 is worst than Nazi Germany. Discuss.

QUOTE

This is ridiculous. Please stop reading the war-time Pravda or New York Times and get back on Earth! Romanians were never saw as \"racially inferior\" by the Germans.

You're very naive here. You see, there was a racial hierarchy. Wether the Rumanians where are the bottom, the middle or the upper half of the scale is irrelevant : there was only one at the top (ideally one with blue eyes & blond hairs) and all the others where below. But the Nazis where not completely incompetent. They needed allies too, as long as they where usefull and as long as Adolf could make them believe in Santa Claus. Get back to earth, indeed.

QUOTE

I don't understand why do you point Germany exclusively, when even today wolrd powers such as the US have troops stationed in more than 100 countries.

Yeah and they run around building up concentration camps in their newly won lebensraum and filling them with Ziklon B, political opponents and inferior specimen. It's really a collateral damage of the same and unique nazi ideology.

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No, the difficulty (& annoyance) come from the lack of structure.

QUOTE

Maybe, but I didn't read it all.

But that doesn't prevent you from lecturing others who did.

QUOTE

Those men were saying that stuff from behind desks in Parliaments. They should have been responsible for their words.

In wartime, when your ass is on a parlement desk, you are only responsible for winning the war. And they did.

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Germany's post-WWII fate was \"saved\" by the Soviet menace, who demanded that the Allies re-organize Western Germany....

This is funny. The Germans where saved by the Soviets. You made my day.

[Dénes]

QUOTE

QUOTE You forgot the leading Soviet (thus Allied) propagandist of the Second World War, Ilya Ehrenburg's pamphlet, titled simply \"Kill\":Dénes Pretty disgusting but given what the Germans did in Russia you cannot expect anything better as morale boosting pep talk.

Chandernagore, defending the Soviets is similar to apologising for the Nazis. :!:
I am sure the Nazis, too, had some excuse for what they did. This does not absolve their crimes, however. Same situation is with the Soviets.

Dénes

[Geto-Dacul]

Chandernagore wrote :

QUOTE

So you don't know about the Poles. Strike one.

After WW2, Poland was granted the rest of Pomerania, Silesia and a good chunck of Prussia. Those territories were all inhabited by a majority of Germans... But looks like Churchill & Stalin arranged a fast ethnic cleansing, send the Germans from those territories in the FRG, and comed with the Poles "cleaned" from the ex-Polish territories East of the "Curzon line". During WW2, the Poles were treated as a vainquished nation, because they were indeed defeated by Germany (and USSR) in 1939. I don't remember any major crimes against the Poles, appart from the Katyn forrest massacre.

QUOTE

No amount of historical facts will convince you anyway. May I suggest something more actual and visual : look at the Russian movie \"Idi i smatri\" (sorry no cyrillics. \"go & see\") on Bielorussia [A Adamovitch - E Klimov]. Try it and don't tell me that any view of the world that doesn't match yours is Stalinist or Imperialistic propaganda. That trick is a bit worn out.

Idi i smotri was made in 1985, in Soviet Russia, one of the major protagonists of the war. I already heard about that TOTALLY subjective and propagandistic Soviet movie.
Go here and check some comments about it :
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091251/

A user even said and I totally agree with him :

QUOTE

I strongly disagree about this movie being a piece of art. Maybe the ending sequence, but that's about it. I was very disappointed by this film due to the high IMDb rating. It feels like the director wants to be Tarkovsky; but he isn't. Filled with flaws and clichés as well as being propagandistic and biased. Could have been much better. The intro is weak and all through the movie there is a lack of framing. Music could have been used in a much better way. The only really good thing I found was the camera movement which were pretty realistic and made the movie captivating at times. As a whole though, this movie is far from a masterpiece in my opinion. I believe there are much better Russian films and much better war films.

QUOTE

I'm keeping up don't worry. You clearly don't have any idea how the Baltic states population support or antagonism to the Germans evolved as the war dragged on. Sure some Latvians where fighting along with the Germans in 44. So did some Belgians and the French even defended the Fuhrer's bunker in 45. Doesn't mean that Petain or De Gaulle wanted an Iron Cross. Next time you will tell me that the holocaust is a Pravda invention.

Some 250.000 Latvians (from a population of 1.5M) left their country with the Germans in 1944. What do you think, that the Baltic peoples just welcomed the Germans by throwing tomatoes on them? Or the same when the Germans retreated? Explain yourself if you know better. :roll:

QUOTE

France foreign policy in 2003 is worst than Nazi Germany. Discuss.

Off-topic, but open a thread if you want in "general discussion".

QUOTE

You're very naive here. You see, there was a racial hierarchy. Wether the Rumanians where are the bottom, the middle or the upper half of the scale is irrelevant : there was only one at the top (ideally one with blue eyes & blond hairs) and all the others where below.

But the chief of those crazy blonde & blue eyed nazis and aryans was a brown hair guy... Very paradoxal! Just to show you on what insignificant details of propaganda you can focuse... Is there written anywhere in your Mein Kampf that every pure German must have blue eyes and blonde hair?! Or you read that in some books of Eli Wiesel??? 8)

Of course that the Germans needed allies. But there is absolutely no serious proof of Germans behaving as a superior race among or with Romanians!!! Before the Wehrmacht invaded USSR, and when she defended Eastern Romania in early 1944, the Germans were constantly in contact with Romanian peasants and villagers. And there was not anu serious report of bad & racist German behavior. Even more, the Germans helped peasants repairing the very few machinerie they had in exchange of food... And that happened even when Romania turned against Germany.

QUOTE

Yeah and they run around building up concentration camps in their newly won lebensraum and filling them with Ziklon B, political opponents and inferior specimen. It's really a collateral damage of the same and unique nazi ideology.

Actually, they don't waste their time killing people... They prefere to extract precious ressources for the needy Western capitalist economies.

QUOTE

But that doesn't prevent you from lecturing others who did.

You didn't read it! You are reading it!

QUOTE

In wartime, when your ass is on a parlement desk, you are only responsible for winning the war. And they did.

Winning the war by behaving like you reproach it to the nazis?

QUOTE

This is funny. The Germans where saved by the Soviets. You made my day.

Glad I did it!

Getu'

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

After WW2, Poland was granted the rest of Pomerania, Silesia and a good chunck of Prussia. Those territories were all inhabited by a majority of Germans... But looks like Churchill & Stalin arranged a fast ethnic cleansing, send the Germans from those territories in the FRG, and comed with the Poles \"cleaned\" from the ex-Polish territories East of the \"Curzon line\".

You’re still lost in frontier & territorial issues. The real human issue has nothing to do with the damned maps. It’s all about a people, the utter subjection of the Polish people by the nazi in early war. You can't escape the consequences.

QUOTE

During WW2, the Poles were treated as a vainquished nation, because they were indeed defeated by Germany (and USSR) in 1939. I don't remember any major crimes against the Poles, appart from the Katyn forrest massacre.

In the 20th century, declaring war on his neighbor with no other objective than to grab territories, ressources & turn people into half slaves is a crime in my book. Not in yours apparently.

QUOTE

Idi i smotri was made in 1985, in Soviet Russia, one of the major protagonists of the war. I already heard about that TOTALLY subjective and propagandistic Soviet movie.   Go here and check some comments about it : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091251/

Hogwash. Of course it’s subjective like all movies or books. This movie exists to tell a much forgotten story, wether you or some half witted critic find it artistic enough or not. Dismissing anything you don’t like as Stalinist or Imperialistic propaganda is a worn out trick. Your genius is obviously far too free and soaring to be shackled by such minor details as either fact or probability. Therefore I suggested the movie.

QUOTE

Some 250.000 Latvians (from a population of 1.5M) left their country with the Germans in 1944. What do you think, that the Baltic peoples just welcomed the Germans by throwing tomatoes on them? Or the same when the Germans retreated? Explain yourself if you know better. :roll:

Give me your sources for this. The great trek to follow the doomed invader into oblivion ? A number probably left, those who hated Stalin so much that they threw their lot with the nazis in 41. When the pendulum came back , those who hadn’t changed their minds had little choice.

QUOTE

But the chief of those crazy blonde & blue eyed nazis and aryans was a brown hair guy... Very paradoxal!

Not at all. It was a template.

QUOTE

Just to show you on what insignificant details of propaganda you can focuse... Is there written anywhere in your Mein Kampf that every pure German must have blue eyes and blonde hair?! Or you read that in some books of Eli Wiesel???  8)

Your laughing alone again, Geto ? First sign of senility I see. But I will not laugh with you over the racial theories supported by the NSDAP. You will of course deny that they existed but it doesn’t surprise me anymore : you’re a renowned nazi apologist by now.

QUOTE

Of course that the Germans needed allies. But there is absolutely no serious proof of Germans behaving as a superior race among or with Romanians!!!

Sorry, I see that I hurt you in your deeply ingrained nationalist soul. But I will reassure you : they usually only showed their typical superiority feeling (coupled with a good measure of contempt), because they needed canon fodder and oil. Clearly, the German soldier's reaction after the formation of the Stalingrad kessel was a bit less friendly but then, it’s in hard times that one recognizes his true friends, isn’t it ?

QUOTE

But that doesn't prevent you from lecturing others who did.

QUOTE

You didn't read it! You are reading it!

I just finished it. Lol.

QUOTE

Winning the war by behaving like you reproach it to the nazis?

Did I miss a quote ? Where did the western allies behave with the savagery of the nazis ? Did you read that in « Stormfront » or the Waffen SS website perhaps ?

Oh, I see that you didn't have the guts to put your signature in English, following the forum rules. Perhaps I am not supposed to share the fun ?

[Geto-Dacul]

Chandernagore wrote :

QUOTE

You’re still lost in frontier & territorial issues. The real human issue has nothing to do with the damned maps. It’s all about a people, the utter subjection of the Polish people by the nazi in early war. You can't escape the consequences.

Frontier & territorial issues were one of the main causes of WW2. And yes, the real human issue was drawn on maps after WW2. Its all a question of fairness... Yes, the Germans oftenly behaved brutally with the occupied Polish people, but how do you think the Poles behaved before and after WW2 with their German minority?

QUOTE

In the 20th century, declaring war on his neighbor with no other objective than to grab territories, ressources & turn people into half slaves is a crime in my book. Not in yours apparently.

Invasions and declarations of war have always complexe precedents to study. I cannot say it is criminal ; if it would be like this than it means that Human nature is also criminal. What do you think of the U.S. armed intervention in Haiti in 1915, who ended with a military occupation of that country of 19 years? Or what do you think of the American bombardments on China during 1945-46? Aren't those crimes too?

If you know a little bit of French, you can visit this site :
http://usgohome.free.fr/interventions.htm

QUOTE

This movie exists to tell a much forgotten story, wether you or some half witted critic find it artistic enough or not. Dismissing anything you don’t like as Stalinist or Imperialistic propaganda is a worn out trick. Your genius is obviously far too free and soaring to be shackled by such minor details as either fact or probability.

That story is a crappy traditional peace of Soviet propaganda. And I do not dismiss everything I don't like as Stalinist propaganda, but I can assure you that I know of what I'm talking about, knowing pretty well what that propaganda looks like. I have a hell of communist newspapers of the war, and I had the fun and opportunity to read many hilarious stories of nazis butchering 15.000 civilians in a garage etc, etc.

QUOTE

Give me your sources for this. The great trek to follow the doomed invader into oblivion ? A number probably left, those who hated Stalin so much that they threw their lot with the nazis in 41. When the pendulum came back , those who hadn’t changed their minds had little choice.

Now you can jump at me with all your hatred : My source is from what I heard from the actual president of Latvia, Mrs. Vaira Vike-Freiberga at an interview with a French journalist, on TV5. Maybe that she was exagerating... But it is for sure that 150.000 Latvians served in the SS, and those who survived prefered to surrender to the Americans. The 100.000 may have been other civilians who immigrated to the US and Canada from 1939-45.

QUOTE

You will of course deny that they existed but it doesn’t surprise me anymore : you’re a renowned nazi apologist by now.

Here it comes! As expected! Tomorrow, I'll be a pure nazi :!:
And also, I don't deny that the Nuremberg Laws existed... I only say that the effects of those laws are insignificant... In 12 years, Nazi Germany could not implement such a system at European scale, when being in war. Even during peace time...

QUOTE

Sorry, I see that I hurt you in your deeply ingrained nationalist soul. But I will reassure you : they usually only showed their typical superiority feeling (coupled with a good measure of contempt), because they needed canon fodder and oil. Clearly, the German soldier's reaction after the formation of the Stalingrad kessel was a bit less friendly but then, it’s in hard times that one recognizes his true friends, isn’t it ?

Oh... Now they just "only showed their typical"... Because they needed "canon fodder" and oil... :shock: Chandy, get a life ; nobody forced Romania in war against the USSR. Not even Germany. It was voluntary. All the decisions were made by Romania.
Again, you generalize and fall in deep stereotypes... The German soldier was like any other soldier. First of all, he was a human being... Even if you try to throw racist mud on him. The German soldier suffered as much as the Romanian one at Stalingrad. You, who pretend being a "humanist" and "idealist", should recognize it. :wink:

QUOTE

I just finished it. Lol.

Great job.

QUOTE

Did I miss a quote ? Where did the western allies behave with the savagery of the nazis ? Did you read that in « Stormfront » or the Waffen SS website perhaps ?

Dresden? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Don't know, eigh?! Chandy, please inform yourself ; tens of books were wrote on Allied war crimes.
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=24148

QUOTE

Oh, I see that you didn't have the guts to put your signature in English, following the forum rules. Perhaps I am not supposed to share the fun ?

I'm not a good translator, but I'll try it just for you! :wink:

Getu'

[mars]

First of all, I believe Germany was saved by the fact that she was defeated by both Soviet and Western allies, otherwise Germany's fate after WWII would be much worse.
Of course Germans were suffered gravely in WWII. but let us remember it was Germany started this war, if Germany did not invade Poland in 1939, she would not go through that hell, if you started a war, then I assume you should be man enough to take the consequence without complaint, if Germany won this war, she would become the master of the Europe, if she lose, she got bombed hell of it by American, sound pretty fair to me

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

Frontier & territorial issues were one of the main causes of WW2.

Indeed they are one of the principal causes of evil.

QUOTE

And yes, the real human issue was drawn on maps after WW2.

No, the real human issue was drawn in blood during the war. That you view the drawing of frontiers after it as more significant than the actual suffering tells a lot. But even so, as mars just posted, when you sow the wind you should not be surprised to reap the whirlwind.

QUOTE

Its all a question of fairness... Yes, the Germans oftenly behaved brutally with the occupied Polish people, but how do you think the Poles behaved before and after WW2 with their German minority?

That’s your excuse for war ? But, Geto, it’s often the same justification as Hitler.

QUOTE

Invasions and declarations of war have always complexe precedents to study. I cannot say it is criminal ; if it would be like this than it means that Human nature is also criminal. What do you think of the U.S. armed intervention in Haiti in 1915, who ended with a military occupation of that country of 19 years? Or what do you think of the American bombardments on China during 1945-46? Aren't those crimes too?

To put Haiti on level ground with German occupation policy in Poland ? Bad but definitely not the same category.

American bombardments on China during 1945-46 : tell me about that. I’ve never read anything about it and the French link you posted just pretend that it occurred without mentioning any source, no books, no author, no picture, no reason : nothing. If you root your judgment on such internet based trash I understand better your historical views.

QUOTE

That story is a crappy traditional peace of Soviet propaganda. And I do not dismiss everything I don't like as Stalinist propaganda, but I can assure you that I know of what I'm talking about, knowing pretty well what that propaganda looks like. I have a hell of communist newspapers of the war, and I had the fun and opportunity to read many hilarious stories of nazis butchering 15.000 civilians in a garage etc, etc.

You know you make me doubt that Germany ever invaded Soviet Union. It must be Stalinist propaganda. And Auschwitz was really a farming cooperative.

QUOTE

Now you can jump at me with all your hatred : My source is from what I heard from the actual president of Latvia, Mrs. Vaira Vike-Freiberga at an interview with a French journalist, on TV5. Maybe that she was exagerating... But it is for sure that 150.000 Latvians served in the SS, and those who survived prefered to surrender to the Americans. The 100.000 may have been other civilians who immigrated to the US and Canada from 1939-45.

150.000 Latvians in the SS ? This is grotesque, the equivalent of 10 full strength SS divisions, do you realize the enormity ? What where the divisions names/ID ? Most countries represented in the SS in late war could contribute only one such understrength formation. If you extrapolate such numbers to all involved nationalities you would easily reach 5 millions SS soldiers. I must question your critical sense and analysis capacity.

QUOTE

You will of course deny that they existed but it doesn’t surprise me anymore : you’re a renowned nazi apologist by now.

QUOTE

Here it comes! As expected! Tomorrow, I'll be a pure nazi   And also, I don't deny that the Nuremberg Laws existed... I only say that the effects of those laws are insignificant... In 12 years, Nazi Germany could not implement such a system at European scale, when being in war. Even during peace time...

“could not” …”even during peace time”. That’s pretty much standard revisionist stuff. So you deny that the holocaust occurred ?

QUOTE

Oh... Now they just \"only showed their typical\"... Because they needed \"canon fodder\" and oil...  Chandy, get a life ; nobody forced Romania in war against the USSR. Not even Germany. It was voluntary. All the decisions were made by Romania.

I sure prefer my life than your very touching illusions regarding the nazis. Had Romania refused Germany access to the oil (a first rate requisite for Hitler’s war machine and ambitions) I have no doubt how long the Rumanians would have remained independent. There where really only two choices : jump in the wagon or face the fate of Yugoslavia.

QUOTE

Again, you generalize and fall in deep stereotypes... The German soldier was like any other soldier. First of all, he was a human being... Even if you try to throw racist mud on him. The German soldier suffered as much as the Romanian one at Stalingrad. You, who pretend being a \"humanist\" and \"idealist\", should recognize it.

Rather true but that was not the point.

QUOTE

Did I miss a quote ? Where did the western allies behave with the savagery of the nazis ? Did you read that in « Stormfront » or the Waffen SS website perhaps ?

QUOTE

Dresden? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Don't know, eigh?! Chandy, please inform yourself ; tens of books were wrote on Allied war crimes.

You seem to have trouble distinguishing between individual acts and global state policy. Dresden is effectively a war crime as there was not any military objective there worth killing 100.000 civilians (or more). Most Americans will deny it but it falls clearly in that category. Hiroshima & Nagasaki had a clear goal : finishing the war quickly. It did and when all is told it probably shortened the war casualty list rather than increasing it. If you had the bomb and faced the same choices I’m sure you would have been the first to drop it.

You must be a real democracy hater, Geto. I never hear you say anything positive about US intervention in WWII. I guess you believe the world would have been better if they had stayed out and let the nazis run amok in Europe. Fortunately Roosevelt, one ocean away, had a much better view of what the nazis where up to in Europe. So that today you may express yourself freely on the US designed internet.

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

Chandernagore, defending the Soviets is similar to apologising for the Nazis.   I am sure the Nazis, too, had some excuse for what they did. This does not absolve their crimes, however. Same situation is with the Soviets.

Dénes, let this be clear : I ‘m not defending the Soviets in anyway and I understand well (believe me on that one) that you have no lost love for them. Nevertheless, 2 shorts points :

1. Barbarossa consisted of nazi invasion of Soviet Union, not the reverse
2. Stalin was a bloody bastard whose butcher bill was probably higher than anyone else but his ideology was not reaching the inherent evil found in Nazi Germany. Body counting doesn’t help here. On one side you have a man who corrupted communism and whose paranoia lead him to ruthlessly repress any opposition . His nature doesn’t make him much different than the classic dictator but in scale. On the other side you have a man whose vision of the world was a nightmare.

[Victor]

At Stalingrad there were episodes in which the Germans executed Romanian soldiers or humiliated them. The subject of the German-Romanian military collaboration is a complex one and was far from being a love affair.

But you guys had strayed completely off topic. Please get back to it.

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

But you guys had strayed completely off topic. Please get back to it.

Victor, I 'm not sure how we supposed to debate effectively over Rumania's decision to join the Axis if we cannot discuss directly related geopolitics.

"Was it right or wrong ? " leaves a lot of margin maneuver as you can tackle the beast under several angles. For example you can understand "was it moral or immoral ?" or "was it militarily wise or not ".

It seems to me that all the discussions here where dead on topic in the broader sense and where influencing (or should have influenced) Rumania's decision to go to war in 41.

[Geto-Dacul]

Chandy wrote :

QUOTE

No, the real human issue was drawn in blood during the war. That you view the drawing of frontiers after it as more significant than the actual suffering tells a lot.

Chandy, don't you realize that after WW2 a great part of that "human issue" was still drawn? Territories like Bessarabia, Eastern Poland or the Baltic states actually suffered deportations and even extermination? If you pretend to be a fervent freedom fighter for "human rights", can't you agree that deporting people against their will is a crime? And that was not just made by the Bolsheviks! Oh no! I'm talking about the Germans of the Sudeteland, Silesia, Eastern Prussia and Pomerania! Their fate was decided by Churchill, Stalin and Truman at Potsdam, in 1945! Against the principle of "human rights". My real question is : Why are you so selective?

QUOTE

That’s your excuse for war ? But, Geto, it’s often the same justification as Hitler.

When you're strong, you don't need justifications... Do you think the Americans had a so good justification, when they attacked Iraq at the beginning of this year? Where are the "mass detruction weapons"? :roll:

QUOTE

To put Haiti on level ground with German occupation policy in Poland ? Bad but definitely not the same category.

Yes, but just to show you that this is an occupation! And mass-murder and war crimes were done by the "democratic" allies during the last century.

QUOTE

American bombardments on China during 1945-46 : tell me about that. I’ve never read anything about it and the French link you posted just pretend that it occurred without mentioning any source, no books, no author, no picture, no reason : nothing. If you root your judgment on such internet based trash I understand better your historical views.

Do you need any books to show me that Hitler existed? Do you need any books to show me that WW2 was betwen 1939 and 1945? Don't be childish. When the Americans supported Chang-Kai-Shek (don't know the exact spelling) and his "nationalist" armies against Mao's communist forces, they also used planes... And they bombed "strategical" points in China.

QUOTE

You know you make me doubt that Germany ever invaded Soviet Union. It must be Stalinist propaganda. And Auschwitz was really a farming cooperative.

For you, "invading the poor defenseless Soviet Union" was crime... Co more comments.

QUOTE

150.000 Latvians in the SS ? This is grotesque, the equivalent of 10 full strength SS divisions, do you realize the enormity ? What where the divisions names/ID ? Most countries represented in the SS in late war could contribute only one such understrength formation. If you extrapolate such numbers to all involved nationalities you would easily reach 5 millions SS soldiers. I must question your critical sense and analysis capacity.

Some countries "volunteered" more than others, Chandy... If you didn't knew this, that doesn't mean that it is "grotesque".
See : http://www.vho.org/News/GB/SRN11_99.html#4

"drafting him and 146,000 Latvians into a ``volunteer'' Waffen SS legion in a last-ditch mobilisation."

And also something for you : http://www.latvians.lv/virtualmuseum/index.htm

Weren't the Latvians horrible nazis????????????!!!!!!!!

QUOTE

could not” …”even during peace time”. That’s pretty much standard revisionist stuff. So you deny that the holocaust occurred ?

Logically, it can't be possible to impose a mentality in only 4-5 years on an entire continent, and also being in war! Let's be serious! If that's Holocaust denyal, than you have a problem somewhere.

QUOTE

I sure prefer my life than your very touching illusions regarding the nazis. Had Romania refused Germany access to the oil (a first rate requisite for Hitler’s war machine and ambitions) I have no doubt how long the Rumanians would have remained independent. There where really only two choices : jump in the wagon or face the fate of Yugoslavia.

Actually, Romania could not refuse Germany to access her oil. Romanian needed weapons from Germany. Romania and Germany matched togheter. We lost important territories in 1940, and we needed a strong army to recover them. The only one who was powerful enough to give us what we wanted was not G-B, France, Soviet Russia or USA but Germany.
Of course that Germany could have taken the oil by force... But it was against her own interests.

QUOTE

You seem to have trouble distinguishing between individual acts and global state policy.

So Dresden was an "individual act"... It was bombed by a bunch of drunked pilots etc... Your justifications are really surprising me.

QUOTE

Hiroshima & Nagasaki had a clear goal : finishing the war quickly. It did and when all is told it probably shortened the war casualty list rather than increasing it. If you had the bomb and faced the same choices I’m sure you would have been the first to drop it.

Throwing A-bombs on civilians is not called "finishing a war quickly" ; it is called WAR CRIMES. The Japanese already started negociations for peace.

For me, "democracies" are responsible for the crual death and starvation of millions of people since 1939. They globaly behaved in a worst manner than the nazis. We cannot only blame the guy who lost the war.

[Geto-Dacul]

Victor wrote :

QUOTE

At Stalingrad there were episodes in which the Germans executed Romanian soldiers or humiliated them. The subject of the German-Romanian military collaboration is a complex one and was far from being a love affair.

I heard this statement enough times... I want documented sources from now!

P.S. : I'll get back on topic!

GETU'

[Victor]

This letter was sent by marshal Antonescu on 9 December 1942 to marshal Erich von Manstein, but obviously it was addressed more to Hitler.
Here are the fragments from the letter:

Romania offered almost all its available armed forces, with the best officers, the youngest and best trained troops and the most modern equipment it had, so that together with the Wehrmacht it can contribute to the destruction of the enemy, fulfilling thus an European role, far from its national and political ideals. This generous sacrifice must not be regarded as an obligation without restrictions. No one can ask us to give something else than we choose to, because between Germany and Romania there is no political or military convention.
[...]
The troops of the 3rd Army marched 500-600 km to get to the front, while the German troops were brought in directly by train.
[...]
As the Romanian divisions replaced a German or an Italian division on the front they left without even warning us. Out troops did not find any organization, AT defensive positions, barbed wire or even barracks. They had to defend an area without forests, with few villages or natural defenses. This region had already been dried out of food and hay by the previous occupiers. Even the existing warehouses were taken away, so the supply was done by horses, over a 120 km distance.
[...]
The remarks of the Romanian General Staff and even mine personally were not taken into consideration by the German command. [probably referring to the suggestions for the elimination of the bridgehead over the Don] The un-human behavior of the German troops towards their Romanian comrades has upset me profoundly. I am informed that, when the German soldiers retreated by trucks and Romanian soldiers tried to get into those trucks, they were hit and thrown into the road.
[...]
I am informed that my soldiers, who fought bravely are now shot by your men in the encirclement at Stalingrad. I am also informed that some of your soldiers, that have been behind the front for a long time, simply confiscate the hand weapons of our officers and NCOs.
[...]
The massacre of the units of the Romanian 1st Corps will have a disastrous effect on the Romanian-German comradeship and will bring nothing good in the future.
[...]
I am also informed that German units take, without any excuse and with a huge daring, the horses of our service troops and leave them on foot.
[...]
I am also informed, Herr Marschal, that general Hollidt is showing an unbearable brutality against the Romanian commanders.
[...]
There were of course cases of defections, but reported to the number of troops they were isolated. There were defections also in the German formations during the Soviet attacks on 19 and 20 November. The proof is the large number of confused German soldiers which gathered at Morozovskaya. But the Romanians were branded as cowards!
[...]
The success of the Soviet offensive is not due to the inefficiency of the 3rd and 4th Army, but to the lack of foresight of the command of Army Group B, the skillful choice of the attack point and the massive concentration of forces in secrecy.
[...]
The Romanian soldier can be judged only by the Romanian officer or command. I feel it is my duty to warn you that if this attitude does not stop I will have to reevaluate the situation of our forces in your front.

[Chandernagore]

CQFD my dear Geto. Need I say more ? At this stage you dropped your pants pretty shamelessly.

You just can't hide where your preferences go. Your historical education is essentially made of shit assembled on various neo nazi web sites. You can't give a serious historical study reference.
You only admire brute force. You choose dictatorship and ethnic cleansing over democracy and peace any time. Your dream is apparently a greater Rumania encompassing every terrritory where a Rumanian put his foot any one time in history. If the cost is war and massacres it's 100% ok because the law is the strong.

In fact you are a fossile, a relic we don't need anymore in Europe. You're a shame for Rumania which deserves better..

To finish off, I will quote a jew for your personal pleasure, I'm sure you will appreciate him.

" There is no point arguing with unresisting imbecility".