The death of Cpt. av. Alexandru Serbănescu

I disagree.

Serbanescu's wingman tried to warn him that a Mustang is on its tail. That means to me a rather close range.

ALL shot down airplanes fell down to the earth, none stayed in the air.

If you're withing firing range (see point #1) you don't have to be a 'gunsight shooting expert'.

The detective work continues...

Gen. Dénes

P.S. Mr. Cantacuzino, perhaps you can ask Mr. A for the exact time of Serbanescu's crash, contained in the detailed accident report. Also, you might find out the constr. no. of his Gustav, too.

My bad.. I was reading miles and thinking Km

Denes, I haev to disagree - you do not need to have a bandits close to your six to get a warning, having one in your six is enough cause for concern and your wingies will warn you. Also: many pilots were good flyers but very VERY few of them were good shots, even when not using deflection.Now in order to get a deflection you really need to know your gunnery.


Edited: You usually warn someone he has enemy in his tail while he can still do something about it, if you do it when enemy is very close - within shooting range - it is already too late.So if Serbanescu's wingies saw one Stang diving towards him, they would not wait untill he gets really close to him... they would start warning him at once: "you have bandit on your tail" or "bandit falling on your tail" or something... So it is not right to assume the distance between the Stang and the Messer when the US pilot fired, based only on the fact that Serbanescu got a radio warning.

This post has been edited by D13-th_Mytzu on April 28, 2005 03:19 pm

Ok Denes, explain to me who are the bf 109 shot down on north of Ploesti. If they were not romanian they must be germans. So the germans took off from Cioara Doicesti SE of Ploesti and they fight with Mustangs far away to the North crossing the romanians who took off from Tecuci who fought Mustang in the est (over german area to defend). It doesn't sound to logical for me.
You all forget there are german looses for that day. Some of them close to the airfield Cioara Doicesti ( SE of Ploesti and not North of Ploesti)

Dan.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 28, 2005 03:28 pm

German looses for 18 august '44 :

-Uffz Karl Heinz Lange 2/JG53 bailed of his damaged Bf 109G6 wnr. 165671 at Maiul/Cioara .
- Lt Herbert Franke 1/JG53 crashed near Cazanesti.
-Bf109 G6 wnr 166170, I/JG53 crashed near Maiul ( pilot safe)
- Uffz Hannes Stadler 3/JG53 force landed at " Cherasui".

I/JG53 took off from Ciora Doicesti for interception of bombers at est of Bucharest.

I doubt that a single german 109 from this list got so far away to the north est of Ploesti to be shot by US Mustangs

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 28, 2005 05:09 pm

That is one of the reason of the long distance shot. American pilot was not blind to see Serbanescu wingmen who could shot him if he make the mistake to close Serbanescu and even follow him to the deck. US pilots were not kamikaze.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 28, 2005 03:36 pm

You have a point here, Mytzu.
However, remember, they tried to warn Serbanescu in time, but he couldn't hear them. So the Mustang could continue to creep closer and closer until he was within firing range...

We have to ask Mr. Cantacuzino for the source he quoted to check out what really happened. Was it by any chance 'Mustang Ace', by Goebbels?

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 28, 2005 03:57 pm

Ok, First of all we have to agree what squadron from 31FG meet the romanians : 307th, 308th or 309th.

The 31FG (escort mission for the Bombers) with Ploesti direction : 309sq at the left of BG formations ( that means north Ploesti), the 307sq behind BG formation ( that means est Ploesti) and 308 on the right side of formation ( that means south of Ploesti).

For romanian 7thFG area to defend was triangle Bucharest-Ploesti- Pitesti. That means est of Ploesti. Two Bf 109 from the group were forced to land by Mustangs. One US pilot from 307sq claimed 2 Bf109 est of Ploesti. Could be only coincidence???

For germans of JG 53 the area to defend was est of Bucharest and SE of Ploesti.
4 Bf 109 from the group were lost in that area ( E and SE of Ploesti).
One 308sq pilot Lt Goebel claimed 3 Bf109 shot down in that area.( Lt Franke was one of them). Could be only coincidence???

The 309sq claimed two Bf 109 in the north area of Ploesti.
2 Bf 109 from 9FG were lost in NE of Ploesti .Serbanescu and Gavriliu.
Could be only coincidence ???



This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 28, 2005 04:10 pm

I didn't quote anything. Be more specific. I have many sources not only Goebel memories.

The two wingmen Lt.Dobran and Sgt Darjan not only warned by radio theyr leader but also trying to made shots in front of Mustang to spoil his aim. So again the american had to keep the distance and made the shot from the upper position as Dobran recall.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 28, 2005 04:12 pm

Lt.Goebel in his P51 D "Flying Dutchman". One of his victim on 18 august '44 was Lt.Franke from JG 53. Later he get in touch and became good friend with one of Lt. Franke wingmen who survived the fight of 18 august '44. From the book Mustang Ace-by Goebel



This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 28, 2005 04:26 pm

G-ral Dobran remembering the day when he lost his beloved leader (18 august 2004 Ghencea cemetery - Cpt.Serbanescu comemoration ).



This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 28, 2005 05:14 pm

And today one of Goebel P 51 D Mustang "Flying Dutchman" replica.
Source 31 fighter group website.

Picture of one P51 D Mustang from 307th sq ( 31FG) who fought on 18 august at est of Ploesti. Source 31FG website.

One picture who should be familiar to G-ral Dobran. P-51B Mustang from 309sq (31FG) prepare to aim from upper position and start diving.
It's time to warn your leader. Watch your six !!
Source G-ral D.Loving ( ex 309sq pilot).



This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 28, 2005 04:50 pm

I wanted only to say that Lt.Busley didn't see the bf-109 crashed so he was not sure about the victory. His squadron mates saw his Bf-109 crashing in to the earth so they convince Busley to claim the victory.

Denes, why you treat everybody as stupid people. Ofcourse all shot down planes fell down to the earth because of the gravity law

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 28, 2005 05:12 pm