The death of Cpt. av. Alexandru Serbănescu

Who was the Bf-109 shot down by Lt.Beeman ???

What we know from Beeman report is that his canopy came off in the dive chasing one Bf 109 who finally was shot down.

As far as i know the only romanian pilot who step dive and made some aerobatics to loose any Mustang from his tail was Lt.Gavriliu. But finally he was shot down by a Mustang copying his complicated maneuver. Ofcourse in a step dive and high "G" maneuvers you can loose the canopy.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 29, 2005 12:26 pm

Lt Zettle claimed a probable.

We know litlle about how Cantacuzino was forced to land ( chased by 309 Mustangs?) Could be Lt.Zettle who did the chase ???
Other 9FG pilots were chased by 309sq and it could be one of them also probably claim.

Denes agree with me that can't be Serbanescu the probable one.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on May 01, 2005 09:03 pm

Yes Denes, but not allways. I talk with the pilot of the Mustang from the picture and he told me that he wanted to release the extra fuel tanks but in vain. The release system failed.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 29, 2005 07:31 pm

Ok, now my first option from the begining.

Extras from 31FG diary for 18 august '44.

Quote: " Lt.Busley, the squadron's graduate RAF gunner, finally got a legal claim, but he complained bitterly that the "german!!!!" had actually crashed before he could close to "killing range"( whatever that might be). The unlucky pilot seemed dead enough to the rest of the squadron."

I made a drawing to understand what could means that "killing range" and if it match to Serbanescu issue.
I am waiting feedback from everybody ( not only from Denes)



This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 29, 2005 08:19 am

Denes, check the shot down locations (victories) of 31FG for 26 july'44 over romanian 9thFG pilots ( Popescu Ciocanel,Economu,Turcanu ...) it doesn't match at all with the exact location found by romanians after the combat. And the fight was at low altitude.

For romanians Cpt. Alexandru Serbanescu remain a Hero and will be comemorated each year on 18 august at Ghencea Cemetery.
Picture courtesy Dan Melinte 2004.



This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 29, 2005 12:18 pm

Verry nice drawing Cantacuzino!!!

The unfortunate advantage of the Mustang was that the shot was comming [cu bolta] and avoidet the armour in the back seat of the Sebanescu's palne.

I didn't intend to mislead anyone.

By engagement I meant that the Mustangs sighted Bf 109s, they got close to them, shots were possibly fired, but no victory was scored. (Dragos, is this yet anotehr 'pickwickianism'? )
For example, 'Electric' did understand the notion and the difference between 'engagement' and 'victory'.

Cantacuzino, apparently you're quick to jump to (baseless) conclusions that are defavourable of me. And this is not the first time...

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 29, 2005 09:30 pm

Ok Denes, you came closer and closer to my first option

This sounds a bit childish to me. "My option". What do you want to prove with this?

Now should I say that you came closer to my option, when you changed your original option for the 15 miles E of Ploesti location? No, I wouldn't.
I also left your sarcastic note regarding Serbanescu having his name painted on the wings of his airplane for better recognition for US pilots unanswered.

When I originally said that to me the most probably location is 15 miles E of Ploesti, I already knew which US fighter squadron was active there. I posted it later on (yesterday evening).

I'll return with more concrete data and answers to your other posts later on, when I'll be home and I'll have my references handy.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 29, 2005 08:54 pm

Cool indeed!

On August 23, 1944, both JG 53 and JG 77 were stationed on Focsani North (thus North-East from Ploiesti).

Are you sure five days earlier they were taking off from Cioara-Doicesti (East-South-East of Ploiesti)?

Gen. Dénes

I re-read the pages from Lt. Dobran's diary referring to the incident.
He clearly indicates that Serbanescu was diving in a straight line, at high speed, for a long time, when he was bounced from behind by a Mustang (p. 113, centre).

Now, re-reading the testimony of one of the 309th F.S. pilots who achieved confirmed victories that day - published in a primary source - 2nd Lt. Beeman noted that he was in a steep dive to get closer to the target and to give "the German" a burst, when his cockpit canopy blew off. He continued to inadvertently dive until he regained control of his airplane. When that happened, the enemy was still in front of him, diving, so he closed in and finished it off.

However - as an illustration of how difficult is to actually pinpoint the actual victor in a 'who-shot-down-who' scenario - the narrative of 2nd Lt. Skogstad, of 307th F.S. also fits the events. Based on his recollection of the event a few days after the mission, published in a primary source, he performed a long dive, approached the target and fired at it. He did not see any hits, but the enemy airplane dove and crashed to the ground, blowing up.
However, I've shown earlier that the 307th F.S. was most probably fighting with Gr. 7 vân. & JG 53, not Gr. 9 vân., so he's out of the picture.

I have no direct testimony of the victory achieved by 1st Lt. Busley, but from a secondary source it appears he fired from the distance, out of the "killing range" (no mention of deflection shot, though). No further details are given.

Perhaps Cantacuzino can add more to the second case, as this appears to be his option.

Without a detailed direct testimony of 1st Lt. Busley, and based only on what I currently have at my disposal, I would opt for 2nd Lt. Beeman as the victor over Serbanescu.

However, I am not 100% sure, thus at this moment my conclusion remains an educated guess only.

I rest my case - for the second time...

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 30, 2005 02:47 am

There is no question about it.

I also have high esteem for Cpt. av. Serbănescu - the top scoring ARR ace until his untimely death - based on his accomplishments.
I try to convey this into my writings:
"Serbănescu was the second ranking ARR ace, with 55 aerial victories, and is universally respected by surviving Rumanian airmen, who consider him to be the ultimate hero of the wartime ARR.

On the anniversary of his death, surviving fighter pilots have gathered at his grave at Ghencea Military Cemetery in Bucharest - a custom observed even during Communist rule - to remember Serbănescu. Sadly, the numbers of veteran vânători are dwindling each year."
[Excerpt from the book on Rumanian Aces, published by Osprey Publ., in 2003, p. 76]

Gen. Dénes

Serbanescu was diving in a straight line not in a step dive ( wich could be almost vertical). The high speed ( 600Km/h) as Dobran remember in his diary it is a normal speed for Mustang at that altitude( with double stage compressor) so no way to loose the canopy at a normal dive and speed (only600Km/h) .In a step dive ( could also be vertical) the plane could reach 800Km/h or more, indeed a dangerous issue for any kind of plane. You can loose not only the canopy but also the wings.

You forgott to look at the testimony of Lt.Gavriliu about that fight :
Quote:
"În acelasi timp, sub noi în sens invers, trec 4 Mustang-uri. Serbãnescu le vede... vireazã scurt dreapta împrejur si picã pe ele. Toatã formatia face la fel esalonatã în sir indian, afarã de lt. Gavriliu, care din cauza virajului strâns si al aerului rare-fiat la acea înãltime, se angajeazã si picã pierzând vreo 2000 m."

Lt. Gavriliu lost 2000 m in a step dive ( vertical ) not in a straight dive at 600Km/h like Serbanescu.

Gavriliu's plane was full of bullets ( 40 holes) in his fuselage. So probably the Mustang shoot him closer to put so many bullets in his Bf 109.

As for Lt.Busley "out of killing range " shot i sugest to look better to my drawing and read again the Dobran diary.

Quote:
". Întorc privirea la dreapta si... nu mai vãd peste Serbãnescu al 3-lea avion. Intrigat pentru cã trebuia sã fie un motiv pentru care dispãruse, schitez un viraj. A fost deajuns strãfulgerarea unei clipe pentru a se scrie un destin. În spatele lui Serbãnescu si mai sus era un avion cu botul rosu. Cu o ultimã sperantã transmit prin radio: "Virati, d-le cãpitan", poate se va întâmpla o minune si va auzi. M-a fulgerat o clipã gândul cã n-am scãpat, cã Mustang-urile sunt pe urmele noastre, apoi am tras neochit cu tunul si mitralierele între el si cãpitan... era prea târziu însã. Avionul lui mergea picat în linie dreaptã, fãrã sã schiteze nici un viraj. Intrase în rafala trasoarelor rosii pe care americanul o pusese în fatã. Din planul stâng se prelinge o usoarã dârã de fum, avionul se înclinã spre stânga, se întoarce pe spate si picã sub verticalã. "

So the american shot was in the front of Serbanescu that means hits in engine and cockpit and not in the back fuselage like on Gavriliu plane

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 30, 2005 07:30 pm

I'll call Dobran tomorow to find an answer to your questions.