The death of Cpt. av. Alexandru Serbănescu

"No further details" . Graduate a RAF gunnery school it's not an important detail .


I don't think the RAF didn't teach him to use the deflection shot, wich should became a routine for Busley not an exception worth to be mentioned in after combat reports.
Anyone who finish such a school was better than average pilots who didn't learn to use at maximum advantage of corect gunsight deflection shots.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on May 01, 2005 08:10 pm

I just asked Dobran about the whole story;
He said that the distance between the P51 and Serbanescu's 109 was about 150 m.! The P 51 fired from above ,and AS went with his plane directly into the rafale.
Rozariu,who went to recover his body,could not tell much about the hit since all was lest from AS were some bones fragments and few pieces of flesh (all was put into a parash.)
The American was not only lucky but was a good shooter,since he aprecieted right the balistics of his projectiles.Maybee if A.S's radio would have worked,he would know that he had a enemy plane on his tail....

This post has been edited by C-2 on May 01, 2005 07:25 pm

I made a map with the two crashed places of romanian Bf-109 from 9FG.
I draw 5 posible lines used by Serbanescu to straight dive back to Buzau airfield .
I am waiting some opinions of wich line is the closest to the truth judging by the fact that both plane crashed almost vertical to the ground ( as mentioned in Dobran and Gavriliu diaries).

I didn't change my first option - 20 miles North of Ploesti, but now i discover that yours and Electric first option of -"The 15 miles E of Ploesti " looks wrong location in american after combat report for engagement between 309sq and 9FG.

The North and North-Est of Ploesti location is more close to the truth. I am also waiting others opinion for this issue.




This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on May 01, 2005 09:14 pm

And below Gavriliu written memories for 18 august '44. From the book "Eroul aviator Gavriliu" by Comandor Iordache.

I made a drawing with the step dive of Lt.Gavriliu and the Mustang who dove from high altitude to chase the Bf-109. In the high 'G" maneuver it's posible to loose the canopy.
I am waiting also other opinions.

And a picture of Lt.Gavriliu Vasile from the same book of comandor Iordache.


This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on May 01, 2005 08:34 pm

A short combat biography of the american pilot John R.Busley still in my opinion the one who made Cpt. Alexandru Serbanescu an HERO.

John R.Busley 309sq, 31FG -total credited victories -3 .

- 1st april’44, Lt. John R. Busley arrived at San Severo (20miles N of Foggia) as a replacement pilot in 309sq, 31FG.

-21st april’44 in a mission to Ploesti, Lt. Busley claimed as probably victory a Reggiane 2001 ( latest reserch reveal that it was a german BF 109/JG 77 with rocket tubes underwing).

- 5 july ’44, Lt.Busley finished the RAF gunnery school in Cairo and was promoted 1st Lieutenant.

- 11 july ‘44, 1st Lt.Busley volunteering accept extra duty as Armaments Officer.

- 6 august’44, on a escort mission to Lyon France, Busley shot down unindentified twin engine fighter ( Me 410?)

- 18 august ’44, on escort mission to Ploesti , Busley was credited with a Bf-109.

- 8 sepember’44, Lt.Busley with Lt.Boudra after a escort mission for three C-47 to Popesti Leordeni, spent one night in Bucharest ( because of mechanic failures of the Mustangs).

-10 october ’44, Busley was promoted Captain.

- 7 november’44, Cpt.John R.Busley finished the combat tour and get back to U.S. ( interior zone activity ).

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on October 18, 2007 01:28 pm

As for Lt. Beeman who shot down Lt.Gavriliu ( in my opinion) i found only :

1st Lt Lyman A. Beeman -total victories -2

- 18 august '44 in escort mission to Ploesti shot down 1 Bf-109.

-16 September’44 in a escort mission to Brux ( Czechoslovakia) destroyed one Bf-109.

- Lt Beeman is MIA on 11/19/44. in strafing mission Eztergom( Hungary) and Bratislava areas.
It is believed that he bailed out in the Lake Balaton area, because of engine trouble.

Before 23 august '44, the JG 53 was primary stationed at Meri airfield ( july-august). Cioara Doicesti was used as a second airfield by JG 53 .

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on May 01, 2005 09:09 pm

Below a picture of 2nd Lt.Skogstad near his P51 D Mustang named "THOR II".

Serbanescu was diving in a straight line not in a step dive ( wich could be almost vertical). The high speed ( 600Km/h) as Dobran remember in his diary it is a normal speed for Mustang at that altitude( with double stage compressor) so no way to loose the canopy at a normal dive and speed (only600Km/h) .In a step dive ( could also be vertical) the plane could reach 800Km/h or more, indeed a dangerous issue for any kind of plane. You can loose not only the canopy but also the wings.

(...)i sugest to look better to my drawing and read again the Dobran diary

Quote:
". Întorc privirea la dreapta si... nu mai vãd peste Serbãnescu al 3-lea avion. (...)

Cantacuzino, you did not come with any new evidence, only suppositions and opinions, which may or may be not true.

Also, you conveniently left out the most important part from Lt. Dobran's diary, I was referring to (p. 113, centre):
"Toti trei in linie, distantati la 100 metri, cu Serbanescu la mijloc, picam, dar viteza lui "1" este prea mare si nu permite incrucisari... picam... picam... mereu ." After this comes your quote.

Now maybe my Rumanian language skills fail me, but I cannot translate "picam" otherwise than "we dive". This, to me, means that it's a dive over 45 deg., but not vertical. That would have been somethink like: "picam pe verticala" - as some stukisti had told me.

If Serbanescu & co. would have dived at 90 degrees - as you suggest based on your assumption - it would have been surely noted differently, as it wasn't a common occurence for fighters, and not a very wise move either, as the airplane could have torsioned or even disintegrated in the air in a high speed vertical dive.
Perhaps Dr. C-2 can ask Mr. Dobran if he remembers how steep their dive was on that faithful day.

If the Rumanians were diving at high speed, the American pursuer logically would have dived in an ever greater speed and greater angle, to cath his 'prey'. At the moment of taking his Mustang out of this high speed and high angle dive, when 'G' force actually took effect, could the canopy be blown off (note: to my knowledge, G forces occur at a change in speed and trajectory, not at straight dive regardless of the speed).

Here's an excerpt from the war diary of the 31st F.G., related to the aforedescribed incident:
"Just as I was ready to pull out of his dive and give the German [sic!] a burst, his canopy blew off and the plane refused to pull out. (...)
The young lieutenant can't figure out why his canopy had to blow away at that crucial moment.

Therefore, based on the circumstanial and incomplete evidence I have presented, I stick to my original version, given earlier, noting again: "I am not 100% sure, thus at this moment my conclusion remains an educated guess only".

Gen. Dénes

P.S. I have no time to answer the other point you raised, as of yet. I will try to do it in the forthcoming days.
I would also like to hear other persons' opinions on this matter.

P.P.S. Nevertheless, for your effort I welcome you in the Generals' Corps

This post has been edited by Dénes on May 02, 2005 03:20 am

I found new evidence the guncamera movie of Lt.Busley in american archiv. We can see clear on the Bf-109 fuselage the "yellow 1' of Serbanescu.

Hey Denes you asking to much from me. Who do you think i am ?. Rockefeller, to spent milions of dollars in this reserch.
Ofcourse i made only supositions but based on some work to proof my teories (Maps, drawings, and so on) to see more clear what could been happened on 18 august '44.
But from you i didn't get so much work to proof your teories ( about Beeman who shot Serbanescu ??)
And why do you think i did this work only for you ? Let other people to judge my teories and don't try to be " Gica franaru " all the time.

I don't think that if your name is "Denes" all the people should take your afirmation ( Beeman shot Serbanescu) for sure and not doing some more reserch.
Maybe we are both wrong ( none of the two, Beeman and Busley) so let other people free way to judge without personal influence.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on May 02, 2005 08:11 pm

I can see you didn't get my point.

The position of the first crashed place is in North of Ploesti ( Vama Buzaului) so the first engagement and the first victory of 309sq is in North of Ploesti because Gavriliu made a step dive of 2000m and after been shot he made turns ( in circles) all the way to the ground ( that means he keep the initial vertical with a radius tolerance) . Do you think it's only suposition ?

Serbanescu ,Dobran and Darjan made a normal dive 20 to 45 degree to Buzau airfield from the first engagement area( North of Ploesti) .

The second position (crashed place of Serbanescu -Rusavatu ) is in North-Est of Ploesti.
The distance between the second engagement ( when 309sq pilot shot down Serbanescu ) should be close to the place of crash ( Rusavatu) because After been shot Serbanescu ( mortally wounded) dove almost vertical to the ground. ( Check again the Dobran diary).

I can't make the calculation with the " american report of 15 miles Est of Ploesti" because the distance between that point and Rusavatu it's to long for a vertical dive no matter the altitude.

But it looks you didn't bother so much to check my map and to read again the Dobran's Diary.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on May 02, 2005 09:05 pm

Take it easy, Cantacuzino. Remember, it was I who opened this thread in the first place, so I am not trespassing here.

I listed proofs from primary sources, directly from the Combat Diary of the 309th F.G., taken from microfilm, not stories from secondary sources or suppositions/theories, which may or may not be right.
Of course, I also added my point of view 'to connect the dots', theories which, also, may or may not be true.

What makes you think that?

I would definitely like to hear other persons' educated opinions. I actually noted this in my previous post. And I am not sure who is actually Gică Frânaru' here...

Where did you get this strange idea from? You should read again what I've stated, for the second time, at the end of my previous post, in bold letters, so it would be clear to anyone: "I am not 100% sure, thus at this moment my conclusion remains an educated guess only".

Anyhow, I advise you to try to avoid getting personal. This is not the first time you do it.

Of course, that's clearly a possibility. See my highlighted sentence above.

Finally, I would like to note that in normal circumstances, after a thorough investigation of the available evidence, completed with some logical assumptions, the results achieved by the joint effort of all participants could be published in a magazine, or a web site, in the form of a comprehensive study. However, due to the unfriendly attitude present here, I don't think this would be achievable. Sadly, I might add.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on May 02, 2005 09:28 pm

A forum of disscusion it's not suppose to be all the time friendly. It's like a fight ( of arguments ) between knowledgeble persons were the only winner should be the TRUTH.
Yes, you started the thread but this issue with Serbanescu death it's not an easy task. I said from the begin that it will be a long debate like with Richtofen death. It is not necessary to both agree all the time. It's a pitty that nobody else could help at least with some english translation from rom. pilots diary ( Dobran and Gavriliu).
Ofcourse you keep it some aces cards hiden from the begin ( primary informations useful for us but late posted ) and we deal with few pieces of the puzzle at the begin to corect answer to your thread - The death of Serbanescu.
My option ( from now 5 years ago) was all the time and will remain:
Quote
" Lt. J.R.Busley from 309sq, 31FG shot down Cpt.Alexandru Serbanescu ( with a faulty radio) on 18 august '44 ."

From my point of view all the informations i have had before you start this thread was enough to proof that.
Ofcourse you have found more data ( primary sources) about the 18 august'44 fight and posted on the thread but all that informations doesn't changed my "first option" point of view. For me it was a simple answer to your thread but you wanted clear evidence that can't be found easy after so many years (only few surviving pilots of 18 august battle).
Nobody can stop you to publish an article with your option of Lt. Beeman the one who shot Serbanescu.
And ofcourse nobody can stop me to write ( with drawings ) my option of Lt.Busley who shot Serbanescu.
And other people with articles about Serbanescu death with different options.

So i don't know why you are uppset on me because i am not agree with you.



This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on May 02, 2005 10:19 pm