The death of Cpt. av. Alexandru Serbănescu

Thanks Dan for your efforts to discover the truth about the death of Serbanescu.
You allways go deep into the problem and for this I appreciate you.
Keep going!

Fratello

Below the 3D map of the crashed place of Cpt.Serbanescu. Rusavatu village.
Courtesy Dan Melinte.


This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on May 18, 2005 02:17 pm

Very interesting topic, guys! At the moment I am trying to find out who were the victims of Lt. Col. Robert J. Goebel and this post has been a big help.

Last month's Combat Aircraft magazine had a very interesting account of Lt. Bob Goebel's triple victory over 109s in the Ploiesti area.

I'm trying to find out who were his victims. We already know Franke was one of them - Goebel's second kill that day.

The following losses were mentioned for JG 53:

- Uffz Karl Heinz Lange 2/JG53 bailed of his damaged Bf 109G6 wnr. 165671 at Maiul/Cioara .
- Lt Herbert Franke 1/JG53 crashed near Cazanesti.
- Bf109 G6 wnr 166170, I/JG53 crashed near Maiul ( pilot safe)
- Uffz Hannes Stadler 3/JG53 force landed at " Cherasui".

According to Goebel, his first victim bailed safely, his second victim died while trying to bail out (Goebel was still shooting) and his third and last victim flew into the ground while looking back at Goebel, who was firing his last ammo. It seems Franke was the second victory for Goebel (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...909/ai_n8860120). From what I gather of the four losses above, the other three JG 53 victims survived.

From Goebel's account I gather he flew north-east of Ploiesti as he passed Ploiesti again on the way back. Cazanesti (where Franke crashed) is south east though... Maiul/Cioara, as mentioned above, seems to be way west of Bucharest. Stadler force landed, so he can't be the first victim in any case. Perhaps the third, but from Goebels account I gather the third made a rather nasty crash. Quoting from the magazine:

Doesn't sound like this guy survived...

So who were the other two victims of Goebel?

Hi!
Very intresting.We should not rely on only one source about that fight,the memories must not to be trusted 100%.We should find the stories of the other 11 pilot from that formation,only 13 a/c from the entire 9th FG.
So No.1 was with Cpt.av.Serbanescu.
No.4 pilot? crash landed near Matalau.
No.30 also downed,location ukn.
One pilot left the formation early accusing engine problem.
No.28 Lt.av.Gavriliu,he was not in that formation,performing an aircraft test,he joined the batle.
From 7th FG Cpt.av.Agarici Horia crash landed at Buzau a/f.
From behind,the american should be VERY close to penetrate the armour,may be it was a deflection shot,somehow lateral.

I agree with George. Any memoirs have to be taken with a proverbial 'pinch of salt'.

As for Cpt. av. Agarici, here is what I have about his involvement in that particular air battle: "lovit in lupta aeriana cu Mustang, lovit in motor, cabina largata, AF, reparabil."

The pilot who left the formation early accusing engine problem was Lt. av. C-tin Bendas.

Did Lt. av. Gavriliu crash with No. 28, or only tested it?

At that point all 'Gustavs' wore coloured fuselage numbers (e.g., Serbanescu's was 'Yellow 1'), so that detail should be added to the overall picture, too.

More info on this fateful day would be welcome.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on March 19, 2006 05:52 pm

From: http://31stfightergroup.com/31stReference/...GOEBELDISC.html

The story in Combat Aircraft magazine is similar, but slightly more detailed. Memory may be unreliable, but Goebel is pretty consistent in his story.

In any case, the last engagement was on the deck. Goebel tried making a pass, but was unsuccesful as the wingman interfered. He then tried again, this time the wingman was too quick and Goebel was able to attack the leader, who flew into the ground. The wingman then escaped.

It seems this was 40 miles east of Ploiesti, not north-east as I suggested earlier.

Thus the following claims must be Goebel's:

10:40, 15 miles E. of Ploesti at 28,000 feet (then this was Lt. Franke, not Serbănescu)
10:45, 40 miles E. of Ploesti at 27,000 feet (who was this? 27,000 ft must be the starting altitude)

Goebels was the last to arrive back on the airfield in Italy.



One interesting observation, Gavriliu in his memoirs mentions that the sky was clear. Goebel however mentions that the first formation of 109s they saw (coming from the "Russian side of Ploiesti") disappeared in the overcast. Goebel's formation was turning back towards Ploiesti when they were jumped by 14+ 109s.
As it would seem, the 308th FS indeed encountered German 109s, as they were not in the same area as the Romanian 109s.


PS. Can anybody tell me where "Cherasui" is, please? I can't find it on the map.

This post has been edited by Skyraider3D on March 19, 2006 09:28 pm

Can you add more details ?
At what point he joined the battle. Did he attack alone?
What was the place of crash for nr 28 (mentioned in your sources) ?

Quote:

I don't know if my little info. will be of any help

I was leading blue flight & attacked a lone ME109 closing to 300 yards,(out of normal range)&firing a 4 sec burst. Lt. Olsen saw EA go into a steep dive & crash.
Since I had previously been given orders not to pursue & leave area of bombers. I didn't chase th EA I reported firing with a 5 deg. deflection, however it could have been as much 10-20 deg. As I remember the EA was possibly climbing at least I had to climb before leveling off & firing I fired out of range because the EA was flying faster& I didn't want to loose him. This last might be wrong-it's been over 60 yrs.

The P51 I was flying was a B model & was painted a dark color.
Most of the other 51s were D models having a bubble canapy & w/ a natural alum. finish.

Take care,
John R Busley

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on March 20, 2006 02:04 pm

Below the picture of Lt.John R Busley (on the right) near his green P-51 B Mustang used on 18 august '44 mission.

It could be this one:

- Uffz Karl Heinz Lange 2/JG53 bailed of his damaged Bf 109G6 wnr. 165671 at Maiul/Cioara .

According to Goebel, his first victim bailed safely

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on March 20, 2006 02:05 pm

The name of " Cherasui" village was taken from german reports. It could be different from romanian spelling. Germans usually used for ID the villages near railroads.
I believe that "Cherasui" it is in the same area ( SE or E Ploesti ) as the other JG53 planes shot down .

It could be this one:

- Uffz Karl Heinz Lange 2/JG53 bailed of his damaged Bf 109G6 wnr. 165671 at Maiul/Cioara .

According to Goebel, his first victim bailed safely

I agree that Uffz Lange was probably Goebel's first victim, but it doesn't match with the 10:45 claim. The 10:45 claim was the last claim and thus must be Goebel's third victory. Are there any reports from wingmen who survived who describe their wingleader crashing into a slight hill in the middle of a wheat field? (this is how Goebel described it)

This post has been edited by Skyraider3D on March 20, 2006 02:12 pm

At least from Dobran journal we should rely 99%. His memories were written on his small notebook in those days.

It will be great to find the other 11th pilots, 9FG stories for that day. Also it will be great if we could get the stories of the other 25+ pilots from 31FG.
But don't you think we ask to much .

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on March 20, 2006 02:33 pm

It should be one of this two: :

- Bf109 G6 wnr 166170, I/JG53 crashed near Maiul ( pilot safe)
- Uffz Hannes Stadler 3/JG53 force landed at " Cherasui".

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on March 20, 2006 02:31 pm

Maiul is to the west of Bucharest/Ploiesti, isn't it? It definitely happened east of Ploiesti.
Also I doubt the pilot survived, flying into a hill at top speed... not really a "forced landing"

Could it have been another one? Another unit? A Romanian pilot maybe even?

This post has been edited by Skyraider3D on March 20, 2006 02:54 pm