History of "Vanatori de Munte", Romanian Mountain troops

I have a dilema. In another topic http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...=findpost&p=409

it was explained what means "Vanatori".

Edit: Quote from Victor's post

I make here another quote, from
http://www.forter.ro/index.php?leg=istoric

The way of the words gave me this dilema:
"mai aveau si cate un regiment de vanatori"
And this segments of text i find it exactly with the same words in books.
Victor explained well what means "Vanatori", but why they say "mai aveau si cate un regiment de vanatori"? If was infantry regiments, are just infantry regiments. In context is not "brigades of infantry divisions have 2 regiments of Dorobanti and one of Vanatori", for example. If you understand what i want to say.

In the second part is mentioned something about "Vanatori de Munte", but nothing detailed.

Anyone has data?

Thank you,

Iama

This post has been edited by Iamandi on June 09, 2005 11:17 am

Hi Iamandi,

The Romanian "vanatori" had equivalents in other countries. In Germany, for example, such light infantry were known as "jaegers" and in France as "chasseurs". They were not meant to operate in closed ranks like line infantry, but in open skirmish formations. Their field craft and shooting skills were therefore better than in the line infantry.

In the 18th and early 19th Centuries, when infantry were armed with smoothe-bore muskets, the various jaegers and chasseurs were the first to receive rifles (so in Britain the equivalent title was "rifles"). This made them an even more distinctive troop type.

However, when whole armies got rifles in the mid-19th Century, gave up suicidal line formations and adopted better field craft, the various "vanatori", "rifles", "chasseurs" and "jaegers" were no longer distinctive. So, although Britain, for example, still has regiments with the word "rifles" in their title, they have not, in practice, been significantly different from line infantry since the rifle replaced the smoothe bore musket in the 1850s.

The only exception today is amongst mountain troops such as the "vanatori de munti", "alpenjaeger", "chasseurs alpines" or "alpini". Because mountain warfare is a particular skill, there remains a role for specialist light infantry at high altitudes.

I hope this is of some use, even if it doesn't directly answer your question.

Cheers,

Sid.

Thanks for your reply, Sid.
Some minutes ago i received a promise for help, via yahoo messenger. I writed some questions and i expect the answers tomorrow. I will post them on this forum, because i think im not the only one who is interested by this subject.

The source is incredible for me! Pure luck! An ex-commander of "Vanatori de Munte" troops!

More about that tomorrow.
I wish to accelerate the time, to then!

Iama

As I said, in WWII, there was no difference between the vanatori regiments and the infantry and dorobanti regiments.

In WWI (well, the 1916 campaign at least), from what I know, the vanatori regiment was smaller than the other infantry regiments. This was I believe because the regiments were newly created from the vanatori battalions.

The vanatori de munte are a totally different thing from the vanatori. They always were and still are light infantry.

So, Infantry Divisions from 1 to 10 were strenghtened with suplementary forces, by 1 (smaller) regiment (then rest of infantry ones) of Vanatori per each! This is the answer?

Iama

Yes. This was in 1917. In the 1919 campaign, there were separate vanatori divisions.

The vanatori de munte were created in late 1916, when the first battalion was formed, and were also known as light infantry, until things were better organized. In 1919 other vanatori de munte battalions were created and lated the mountain brigades were formed.

The vanatori originated in the tiraliori battalion of Alexandru Ioan I. They were considered the elite of the regular infantry in the 19th century and insured the guard at the palace. After Carol became prince, other vanatori battalions were created. During the 1877-78 War there were four of them, each assigned to an infantry division. The 2nd Vanatori Battalion distinguished it self in the epic assault on Grivice Tabia in August 1877 (see the link to an article on maj. Candiano-Popescu in the thread about Romanians who received the St. George Order).

If you search the forum thouroughly I believe you will also find photos on vanatori in their special uniforms, resembling the Italian bersaglieri or French chasseurs. As WWI approached Romania and efforts were made to modernize the army and reorganize it, the 10 vanatori battalions were transformed into regiments. During WWI, however, they cease to wear their distinctive hats with black feathers and looked like regular infantry.
Unfortunately, as I said already, most of my books are packed away in a friend's cellar, because of the construction works going on at home. I have only a few books with me where I live now and tehse do not include those with details on the organization of the vanatori regiments in 1916 and 1917. From memory though, they were smaller (two battalions) than the regular infantry/dorobanti regiment.

After WWI, these organizational differences were eliminated and they were similar to the rest of the infantry regiments. Thus the esprit de corps usually disappeared from the ranks of the vanatori. The two regiments that served as royal guards (2nd and 9th) were proabably the only remaining elite. When the 1st Armored Division was created, the two motorized infantry regiments in its OoB were the 3rd and 4th Motorized Vanatori Regiments (the former 3rd and 4th Vanatori), which from the moment of their transformation could also be considered elite. The remaining 6 regiments, were just a 19th century tradition, just like dorobanti, rosiori and calarasi, a tradition (well, one of the many unfortunately) destroyed by the Communist Republic.

Hope this helps you understand the situation better,

This is what i receive some momments ago via Messenger, a little fragment from "Albumul omagial al vanatorilor de munte", who will come to me soon, i think in the next week.

Source of mine is unnamed. Dont wan't to be cited. "Say just... you read this."

Iama

PS - More soon, and i hope will be some photos.

or in English:

From: http://www.worldwar2.ro/primulrazboi/?article=118

Read (in Romanian) an account of WWI by an officer from 8th Vanatori Regiment: http://sepwww.stanford.edu/sep/nick/ro/fm/fm.php . A photograph of Vanatori in 1917 can be seen at http://sepwww.stanford.edu/sep/nick/ro/fm/ima.php .

Best,
Nick

A short history of “Vanatori” units.

The first “Vanatori” Battalion was created in September 1860. It was first called “Tiraliori” to make a difference between the second infantry regiment of Moldavia (set up in April 1858) called “The regiment of Chasseurs”. A few weeks later the “Tiraliori” Battalion changed its name into “Vanatori” because during the same period, the two Moldavian infantry regiments (“Musketeers” and “Chasseurs”) were renamed as line infantry units. As other light infantry units of that period, Romanian “Vanatori” were selected among the short height infantrymen, were trained as good marksmen and skirmishers and equipped with rifled carbines instead of muskets. I think that their appearance – with large round hats with black feathers - was influenced by Italian Bersaglieri.
The “Vanatori” Battalion was garrisoned in Bucharest and sometimes performed guard duties at the Prince palace, but was never a guard unit.
In March 1866, after Prince Cuza’s abdication, to others “Vanatori” battalions, the 2nd and the 3rd, were set-up. In July 1868, the 4th “Vanatori” Battalion was also created. From that time “Vanatori” were equipped with the same rifles as the line or territorial infantry - M. 1867 “Dreyse”, or M.1868 “Peabody” rifles. But they still were better trained soldiers.
According the Army Law of 1872, the fourth “Vanatori” battalions were distributed among the four territorial/active divisions.
As the number of the infantry division increased during the last decades of XIXth Century, new “Vanatori” battalions were set up, in order to have a “Vanatori “ battalion for every infantry division.
In October 1896 were set up the 5th and the 6th “Vanatori” battalions.
In April 1900 7th and 8th “Vanatori” battalions were created.
The 9th “Vanatori” was set up in April 1904 and the 10th “Vanatori”, in November 1913. So, all active divisions had a “Vanatori” battalion in their structure.
During the army mobilization of 1914, “Vanatori” battalions have doubled their strength and became regiments. Infantry regiments (Nrs. 1 to 40), composed of 3 battalions, doubled their size and 40 new reserve units were set up (Nrs. 41 to 80).
After WW1, as the army was planed to increase its size on the new acquired territories, new “Vanatori” regiments 16th (Oradea),17th (Zalau), 18th (Alba Iulia), 19th (Oravita) were set up in 1921, but were disbanded in 1923, when MoD decided to reduce the size of the infantry divisions.
During the inter-wars period all the 10 “Vanatori” survived, having the same structure as other infantry regiments. In June 1930, the 2nd and 9th regiments, garrisoned in Bucharest, became guard units, and in March 1941, the 3rd and 4th “Vanatori” became motorized units (“Vanatori Moto”).

The 3rd Motorized Vanatori Regiment was formed from the 10th Vanatori Regiment, which was transformed first into the 10th, then 11th, then the 2nd Motorized Vanatori Group (including also a tank battalion besides the two infantry battalions).

It is strange that during WWII the 10th Vanatori Regiment existed sepparetly.

And I have a question: when exactly did the vanatori regiments become similar in organization with the regular infantry?

Absolutely correct.
The 3rd Motorized Vanatori proceeded from the 10th Vanatori Regiment. On 15th of May 1940, the 10th Vanatori was transformed on the 11th Motorized Vanatori Group and from 1st of September 1940, it became the 2nd Motorized Vanatori Group. Finally, on the 1st of March 1941 the unit was renamed the 3rd Motorized Vanatori Regiment (“Regimentul 3 Vanatori Moto”).
The 4th Vanatori Regiment was transformed in the 1st Motorized Vanatori Group on 1st of September 1940 and became the 4th Motorized Vanatori Regiment. (“Regimentul 4 Vanatori Moto”) in March 1941. This Regiment was licensed, with other army units, on 26th of October 1944.
What about the old 3rd Vanatori Regiment? I don’t know when the 10th Vanatori regiment was recreated, but in 1941 it was included in the 15th Infantry Division.
I have to check, but according the national defence laws of 1920s and 1930s it wasn’t any difference between Vanatori, Infantry (ex-Line or ex-Dorobanti) regiments. All of them had 3 rifle battalions and other specialist sub-units.

This post has been edited by Kepi on November 03, 2005 12:50 pm

In 2nd campaign (Nov 1918 - Aug 1919) not all 10 Hunters Regiment were mobilized in Hunters Div 1 (Lecca) and Div 2 (Dabija). I wonder if somebody can clarify the order of battle in 1918/1919 by brigades in each Division, brigades' commanders and regiments' commanders. I suppose there were changes in time, but at least the original OoB might be useful, not the one after fall of Budapest (when many of them resigned, even gen. Dabija !).
Thank you.

This post has been edited by mateias on December 07, 2007 04:58 pm