On the origins of Romanian language

Aroman, Megleno-Roman, Istro-Romanian could be considered Romanian dialects if you compare Catalan, Valencian or Gallego with Spanish. Although,I never heard about Valencian.That being said means that if we consider a number of common words as base then we can call it dialect.Or,I am not agree with that.It takes more than a common word base,like grammar for example.And I believe that Catalan is classified as language,not dialect.Is a very thin line.I am not prepared (professional) to answer that. What is you qualification , Sid?

Hi Imperialist,

I would point out again, that you firstly said that there was no given origin for imprejurare. You then gave an origin that included a word of ultimately Greek origin. You did all this while also repeatedly refusing to give a source. I have had no dispute with Romanian scholars on this subject. I have only had a dispute with your inability to be either consistent or provide sources promptly. Your Romanian scholars only appeared on my radar when you finally decided to give your source as DEX. Unless, of course, you consider yourself a Romanian scholar in this field?

Why not just reveal your source when you first put the words up, or at least when I first asked? Or do you think that your word has to be taken as gospel truth without question? I have tackled you about reluctance to give sources before and almost every time they have had to be dragged out of you by repeated requests.

So, you don't think it profitable to trace words back ad infinitum. Agreed! You get my point at last. If a word arrives in Romanian via French it should be registered as such, not merely as Latin. Ideally, of course, it would be registered as both. Does the DEX do this?

The "Belgian travel site" is apparently the work of "membres de la communaute roumaine de Belgique et de Luxembourg" and Luxemburg and Belgian "amis de la Roumanie". Professors of Linguistics they may not be, but they don't sound ill disposed towards Romania.

And the good news is that you can apparently ask them directly where they got their information from, because they have a Forum. Happy hunting!

Cheers,

Sid.

No I have originally said:

The message dated Aug 16 2005, 02:45 PM on this page: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=75

Later you questioned me about this and I further clarified that the origin of the words that enter that composition is given in their separate entries in the dictionary.

And where exactly did you presume I was getting the ethymology of a word from, the cook book? Come on, Sid...

DEX clearly identifies the words that are of french origin and the words that are of latin origin. And yes, there also are words that have both origins mentioned. So?

Ofcourse, I have to do the hunting. Sid, this worked a while back, when you summoned me around as some kind of piccolo to search sources for everything I say. This time you made the allegations, you do the hunting, otherwise admit your mistake or lack of complete info.

And I'd like to point out unnecessary parts in your message, which can only serve to flame the thread:

I have only had a dispute with your inability to be either consistent or provide sources promptly.

I have tackled you about reluctance to give sources before and almost every time they have had to be dragged out of you by repeated requests.


take care

Imperialist beated me to it!. I was about to ask the same thing. The first occurence in this thread of the word imprejurare is this one

Further,Sid clears up all my doubts:

Sid,make up your mind,what facts do you want?Also,you did not respond my questions.Or should I point again which ones?

Oh Sid, one more thing,you brought NO PROOF YET THAT 38.4% are from French language. I'm still waiting.

This post has been edited by Zayets on August 19, 2005 12:26 pm

Hi Zayets,

How are your Sanskrit studies going?

I am not advocating 38.4% of French origin. I put up a link that had this figure. Various people, including yourself, seem resistant to this figure, but have not come up with any sourced alternative. I am prepared to accept the 38.4% figure until someone else comes up with a new figure, provided its source is more verifiable than the 38.4% one - which should not be difficult.

There need not necessarily have been any words replaced by the 38.4% of French loan words. New technology and concepts require new words. For example, what Turkish word for "railway station" could have been replaced, given that the Turks initially had no railways.

Then there is the question of duplication, triplication, etc. Somebody on this thread mentioned the Slavic-derived word "boier", meaning "nobleman". I see that, amongst others, the French-derived word "gentilom" is also in the dictionary with this meaning.

I have no linguistics qualifications beyond schoolboy Latin, secondary school French and a bit of Spanish and Portuguese at university. In addition I have my personal reading. I imagine I am on the same level as most others on this thread.

But what really counts is what we post. We should be judged on that.

Cheers,

Sid.

That's something new to me.Anyway-leaving my Sanscrite book away for awhile-I see now that I have been corectly anticipated your moves.You took a phrase somewhere,throw it somewhere where you know it will generate some heat and flee.
Is like someone is entering a pub,picking the most ferocious looking average worker and say : Your wife is a *lut!.Prove me wrong! Is exactly what you did. You never come with something: look what these guys are saying,What do you think about it?You jumped in the middle of a discussion (a thread about something totaly different) and said,pardon me , here's what is writen.
Sorry Sid, now you don't advocate 38.4%.You advocate what now?
You said that nobody came with alternative sources.What better sources do you want than the Romanian Dictionary?Be it DEX, DEX corected or Contemporary?If that's not a source then we talk for nothing because this is ultimately the object of this discussion,thesaurus of Romanian language.And as far as I know,most of it is kept between two covers and its called dictionary.

This post has been edited by Zayets on August 19, 2005 12:42 pm

Hi Imperialist,

So, are we agreed that the Latin word "circum" exists?

And that you introduced both "imprejurare" and "gyrus" into the thread?

You are as usual trying to bury things deep in the thread without addressing them by piling more posts on top. There is lots in my earlier post you are, as usual, evading. Come on. Fess up.

So you wrote "At imprejurare no etymology is given. Yet it is composed of words from Latin origin - but it doesn't say". This is (1) a clear statement that no origin is given, followed by (2) a completely unsupported contradictory assertion that it is Latin.

How am I meant to know what dictionary you have? Indeed, until you actually give details, how am I meant to know you have a dictionary at all? Give sources and answer questions and you won't get in these unnecessary messes.

So? So it is clear that the DEX will tell us what proportions of the language came via French and we can sort out the "38.4%" issue on a higher level than "No it isn't" - "Yes it is". As a sample, why not take the bottom right word on each page and add up their origins? I shall be interested to learn the result. I am not wedded to 38.4%, but I am wedded to the demand for some evidence to the contrary.

I think your logic is faulty. I am not questioning the 38.4% figure one way or the other. You are. The onus is therefore on you to follow it up. On top of this, it would be better if I was not mediating between you and a source. The less links in the chain the better.

I have now given you two possible ways of tackling the 38.4% figure controversy. Whether you choose either or a third route is entirely up to you. One can lead a horse to water, but one can't make it drink.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. You can avoid the "unnecessary parts" of my post by providing sources promptly, not inventing portions of my posts (i.e."British scholars"???), refusing to either substantiate or withdraw accusations (still outstanding on both this and earlier threads) and being evasive (by trying to bury awkward posts in a flood of short diversionary posts).

Hi Zayets,

Sanskrit AND sluts! You lead a varied life.

1) The 38.4% figure is not mine. It is simply the best available on this thread by default. The source may not be directly scholastic, but it is apparently primarily Romanian and well disposed towards Romania.

2) I am perfectly happy to accept a better sourced alternative. All you have to do is find one. If I find one I will also put it up.

I have suggested two possible courses of action to Imperialist that might help resolve this issue. They are also open to you.

If you two don't wish to do so, then I will myself add up the origins of the words at the bottom right of each page of the DEX next time I am in the British Library in London. However, this will not be for several months. So if you want a quick result, without the risk of me falsifying the count, you would be better advised to do it youselves.

Cheers,

Sid.

I did not write sluts.Is you.Besides I hardly doubt that I lead such a life.But that's your oppinion and I do not intend to change it.Any other insults you have in your bag?

1)Nope,is not yours you like to be yours and is what you advocate here even if you came lately with something saying contrary.The source you gave is not Romanian,yet directed to Romania.Is a travel guide.Say no more.

2)Yes,I pointed you to one of them.Go on and count any word,I am not afraid of you falsifying the count.I know what's in there since I was in the primary school.

I may point you now to something you previously wrote:

How does this go whit your initial claim?Re-latinization?Because you said is not necesary to replace some words,right?New technology and concepts not necessarly implies new words although this is mostly the case.Is what we call "neologisme"(Greek origin word and I let you the pleasure to find how it was composed).There's even such a dictionary.Obviously not everything in it is of French origin.
Here is a nice essay (in Romanian but you can babelfish -it) : http://www.muntealb.com/LimbaRomana-bn.htm

Take care

I have browsed the thread from the beginning to the moment where the word "circumstanta" comes up.

Here is a chronological list of Sid's most important statements and allegations.

They are chronologically listed. Due to the large size of the post, I will refrain from commenting them in this post, however, I have underlined the statements that in my opinion change as the discussion goes on, without Sid withdrawing them or whatever. I have also underlined in red some parts.
I suggest that those interested in understanding what the heck happened on this thread would better go to the links themselves and see what was said, and the context.

1. Message on -- Aug 12 2005, 10:48 AM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=0

2. -- Aug 12 2005, 03:48 PM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=0

3. -- Aug 13 2005, 11:50 AM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=15

4. -- Aug 15 2005, 11:39 AM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=30

5. -- Aug 15 2005, 12:00 PM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=30

6. -- Aug 15 2005, 12:23 PM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=30

7. -- Aug 15 2005, 01:32 PM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=45

8. -- Aug 15 2005, 02:05 PM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=45

9. -- Aug 15 2005, 02:53 PM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=45

10. -- Aug 15 2005, 03:41 PM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=45

11. -- SAME

12. -- SAME

13. -- SAME

14. -- Aug 16 2005, 09:13 AM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=60

15. Aug 16 2005, 11:10 AM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=60

16. -- SAME

17. -- SAME

18. -- Aug 16 2005, 11:16 AM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=60

Actually, the word "pálinka" has Slovak origins (now that we are in the midst of an etymology war). However, the Slovaks brew it from wheat, while the Hungarians from fruit.

Certainly, the "pálinka" - which must have between 45-55% alcohol, opposite to the tuica, which has only 20-30%) - was introduced in Transylvania by Hungarians. Thus the Rumanian word "pãlincã" is originating from the Hungarian "pálinka".

Now, after this short commercial break, let's return the boxing ring to the main combattants...

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on August 19, 2005 02:23 pm

I dont intend wasting my time to chase the accuracy of unbacked unsourced data that you post from a travel site. If you would search for a more serious source giving those numbers, probably I would be interested in checking it out.

The mess has been created by you, as you jumped on this thread from the french scholars helping the writing of the first dictionaries, to the nationalist reasons for "Romania" not Rominia, to the nationalist reasons to change vlach to romanian, to the French influential scholars (but not involved in helping to write the first dictionaries), to the words of French origin in the language. From re-latinisation to french origin words and a deliberate policy to borrow them, from that to your conclusion that by substracting the 38% the romanian language would be less latin than today.

If you want to clarify the mess you have created, please clarify what points you still maintain, what you withdraw, etc. And what exactly you want, as you obviously want to prove something, not to find out something.

If you want to stand by your 38%, go and count the bottom right words of the ~ 1156 pages DEX.

I never claimed it doesnt exist!
I said the word circum- is the prefix that is formed out of circa in the latin language. And I said that when you complained that you didnt find circum- in a latin dictionary. And I suggested look for circa. Remember?

[edit -- wait a sec, you claim that the word circum- exist independently, as a separate entry in the dictionary? ]

I wont respond to gratuitous ego provocations.

This post has been edited by Imperialist on August 19, 2005 02:46 pm

Hi Imperialist,

Let me know when you are finished. I see no point in jumping in while you are in full flow.

The first was your tightest, best organised post yet.

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi Zayets,

If "*lut" doesn't mean "slut", what does the "s" stand for?

Cheers,

Sid

Hi Zayets,

I'll rephrase that:

If "*lut" doesn't mean "slut", what does the "*" stand for?

Cheers,

Sid.