Rejecting the Soviet Ultimatum in 1940, Implications

Hi Sid,
I fail to see the problem.You said that Imperialist numbers are very different from yours.You also said that your numbers are very close to Dragos' ones. And Imperialist said before that he'd rather go with Dragos' numbers. What is your problem then?
Not to mention that you said :

Then you come and say that :

The last count is very close to Dragos numbers (as you pointed out) but very different from what you said previously,yet you said Imperialist gave these numbers!!!

He wants me to admit publicly and for the record that my 4 million romanians - 2 million minorities were wrong.
Though I have a source for those numbers too, on closer scrutiny I decided the source could be wrong (being a personal recount of the events) and more accurate numbers are probably available. So, like I said, I do go with Dragos' numbers.
Sid is just doing his part in being "sanitarul forumului" and weeding out any deviations from 100% accuracy. However, I still maintain my main point, that the "numbers" are not minor at all, even if they go down from 4 million to 3,X million romanians "ceded".

take care

One will have a problem thinking that Sid could ever be the board "sanitar" giveing the fact that he also posted numbers which are far from 100% accuracy.
Is like giving the wolf the sheperd stick the guard the sheeps.

Wrong. Both Vienna Arbitrations actually prevented war, not "preparing and initiating" a war, as you suggested.
But this is already off-topic.

Gen. Dénes

Well, I'm sorry, but it's part of the charges of Nuremberg Trial.

Don't push the envelope, Dragos. The Nuremberg Trials have nothing to do with the Vienna Arbitrations (the actual events, that is).

BTW, the trial's papers call the event as "Vienna arbitration", not 'diktat'. Even Ion Antonescu calls it the same way: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/02-12-46.htm

You should not mix Horthy with Mussolini (or Hitler).
Now that you mentioned the Nuremberg Trials, Horthy was present there only as a witness. He was not convicted as a war criminal.

Gen. Dénes

Review my post of Sep 14 2005, 07:35 PM (GMT+2)
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...indpost&p=38822

Ok, you want me to find a statement of Antonescu where he calls it diktat ?
Don't forget that for the Vienna Arbitration/Diktat there is a different topic.

Why should I not mix them? Both were aggressors looking to exploit the achievements of Germany, for their illusionary imperialistic dreams.





This post has been edited by dragos on September 16, 2005 05:21 pm

Hi Zayets,

I think Imperialist has answered your point for me.

Now that he has adopted figures that are almost the same as those in my source, we have no further points of significant difference on this issue.

Cheers,

Sid.

Review my post of Sep 14 2005, 07:35 PM (GMT+2)
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...indpost&p=38822

I did, but I didn't get the point.

Ok, you want me to find a statement of Antonescu where he calls it diktat ?

Don't bother. I've already made my point.

Why should I not mix them? Both were aggressors looking to exploit the achievements of Germany, for their illusionary imperialistic dreams.

Quote: "Don't forget that (...) there is a different topic."

Would you be so kind to specify what did Horthy actually do? (in the separate topic, of course).
As for the "illusionary imperialistic dreams" quote, I really have no comments. It sounds like an excerpt from CVT's or GF's speech.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 16, 2005 06:18 pm

Sid,you are quite a character

OK, so the ~ 626,000 difference between my number and yours was a point of significant difference, or you wanted me to state something for the public record...
I think the latter is the case, because that ~ 626,000 difference doesnt affect the point that the numbers were intended to support (an important demographic loss after the Arbitration). Not a bit.

Hi Imperialist,

Your original statistics were significantly misleading. You contended that twice as many Romanians as minorities were lost in the territorial cessions of 1940. In fact almost the same number of Romanians as minorities were lost, as we are now agreed.

Anyway, now that we are essentially in agreement on the figures, harmony reigns again.

Cheers,

Sid.

Review my post of Sep 14 2005, 07:35 PM (GMT+2)
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...indpost&p=38822

I did, but I didn't get the point.

For everyone to read again:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc...c-01-01-10.html

Absoultely nothing to do with the first Vienna Arbitration...

On July 1st 1940 Romania renounces the british-french guarantees.
On July 2nd, King Carol II sends a letter to Hitler, asking for a military mission and a guarantee for the borders. Does anyone know Hitler's answer to the letter?
On July 11th Romania withdraws from the League of Nations.

But this topic is about the Soviet ultimatum...

"Yes" for the military mission but "not exactly" for the guarantee of the borders. Carol II only asked "to help and protect us in these trying times."

Hitler avoided to give a firm answer by sending the following reply on 3 July 1940: "In view of his desire to see peace and quiet preserved in the Balkans, the Führer would like for his part to learn the views of the King of Romania as to how and in what form he visualises the final pacification of the region after the Romanian-Russian revision question has been settled.”

Carol II's message of 2 July 1940 - to which Imperialist makes reference - mentioned: "We possess reliable information indicating that the Russians intend to go beyond the fixed line of demarcation for the purpose of approaching or seizing the oil fields; this is also evident from their military operations."