ww1 and ww2 romanian war cemeteries

In the Sibiu Battle were involved: Bavarian Alpenkorps, German Divisions 189, 76, 3 (cavalry) and Austro-Hungarian Divisions 51 and 1 (cavalry)
In Poplaca-Orlat - Gura Raului zone the fight took place between 23th Romanian Division and 189 german Division.
The 51 Honved Austro Hungarian Division was comanded by general Staabs.
So it is possible that some hungarian soldiers could be found burried in the cemeteries.
Of course, we could blame the absence of hungarian names on the romanian and transylvanian saxon nationalism. Both nations are not so friendly with hungarians.

There is a religious problem either, the austro hungarians (catholics) were in a christian-orthodox and evangelic protestant theatre of operations in the Sibiu Battle.

As a journalist, i am agree that the media is obsessed by proximity, not acuracy.

This post has been edited by chisi on February 14, 2009 07:15 pm

It is posible that hungarian units were not involved in the battle, so they dont had casualties.

Before screaming that the hungarians were not mentioned, I want only to state that on romanian military cemeteries from Oituz valley are mentioned on crosses and on monuments hungarian soldiers, along with romanians and germans. Romanians are not so evil to deny the memory of fallen enemies in ww1.

Very good overview of the participant forces, Chisi.

The only differences are that it was the 187th German Infantry Division (not the 189th), the 76th Germ. Div. was a reserve one, and Gen. Staabs was the commander of the Staabs Combat Unit made chiefly by the 187th and 51st Div.

Most important to our topic, the 51st Division was a Honvéd (i.e., Hungarian) unit, not a mixed Austro-Hungarian (like the 1st Cavalry Div.).
Yet, despite this Honvéd unit being in the thick of the battle, they either did not have a single dead soldier, or the bodies somehow vanished in thin air - at least that's the only possible explanation according to 21inf., why there is not a single Hungarian soldier's tomb marked as such in the cemetery.

Your words, not mine.

First, there were no "austro hungarians" per se, only Austrians or Hungarians (like there were no "Czechoslovaks", for example, only Czechs or Slovaks).
Second, not all Hungarians are Catholic, many of them are Protestant (Reformat), like myself, very similar to the Saxons' Evangelic Protestant religion.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 15, 2009 03:11 pm

The Fight between Romanian troops and Honved division took place in the Daia-Rosia zone (where is the romanian monument in the picture i put here).
The bodies in the Poplaca cemetery are from isolated graves from the villages in the Marginime zone: Gura Raului, Orlat, Poplaca, Rasinari. I do not believe that the peasants knew exactly which was hungarian, austrian, german or bavarian soldier, so, under the generic name of "austro-hungarian unknown soldier", it is possible to be some hungarian military fighters.

The hungarian names of the fallen I saw at the cemeteries from Cincu-Gross-Schenk (a "heroes cemetery" in the military area in the exercise field) and at Carta-Kerz, inside the cistercian church.

I put the religious problem because the war memorials in the evanghelic CA saxon churches are for exclusive the local villagers who served in the KuK army, and, sometimes (in the case of Carta and Cisnadioara) the other roman-catholic german heroes (austrian and bavarian). Sibiu zone have less reformat-hungarian churches and I do not know about the existence of "intra ecclesia muros" war memorials for hungarian soldiers.
Being a large community of romanians and saxons in Sibiu zone, of course they took care of their heroes...

I will ask my hungarian colaborators if there is a sign of hungarian war monuments or cemeteries in the zone

Off topic:
It is correct, as patriots and history lovers that we are, not to hate other nations just because some written by command nationalist history books or political interests, from any side they might come.
In war, no nation is exclusevily bad or good.

I didnt said that the posible hungarian casualties simply evaporated. Just asking that before saying that the hungarians were not mentioned, it was usefull to point first if they were fighting in the area, in order to probe if they were really there.

Now we have the confirmation from a romanian that hungarian units were there, involved in the battle, and this is a starting point to search if hungarian troops are buried there or in other places.

Why, the word of a non-Rumanian is not good enough?

Gen. Dénes

Did I said that? Maybe i forget to say a romanian journalist, who bravely admited the ignorance of some of his fellow journalist in Romania? And if i didnt forget to say journalist near romanian, since when is a problem that i mentioned that he is what he is...a romanian???

Why dont YOU pointed which hungarian units fought in the area BEFORE saying that they were not mentioned on the ceremony and on the monument.

Another example that romanian army is not bad intented is the military cemetery from Sinaia, near the Casino. There are buried soldiers from different nations, their nationality being properly indicated on the funerar monuments: a romanian hero, a german hero or a hungarian hero. Romanians wrote in stone about those unfortunate soldiers that they were all heroes: romanians were heroes for their country, germans were heroes for their beloved Germany and hungarian were heroes for their beloved Hungary. All, together, are heroes, as long as they fought corectly and died bravely for their countries.

Three names that are probably hungarian (or of hungarian origin) from the plates located inside the evangelic (german) church in Sibiu
It is the possibility that the persons could be germans, but with hungarian ancestors. I hope that Denes wound help...
Johann Pal, Joh. (ann?) Szemerjai, Viktor Czeck,
There is some romanians either: Emil Motzan and Michael Carp

The first two are definitely Hungarian family names (one should disregard the Germanised Christian names, as it was customary to do so at that time).
I am not sure of the third one, though, he could also be of Slavic origin.

Motzan certainly sounds Rumanian; however, Carp could be something else, too.

Thanks, Chisi, for looking after this topic.

Now, if we could only locate a list of names from the newly reopened cemetery, we could conclude this topic.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 18, 2009 10:40 am

My opinion regarding names of people above, from Transylvania, is that Johann Pal might be as well Ioan Paul (or Pavel) and Joh. Szemerjai could be I(oan) Simerian, both romanian. Both family names can be found even today and they are romanian ones (Paul-Pavel and Simerian). The last name can be the direct translation of Simerian romanian name in hungarian, giving the fact that town name Simeria (in romanian) is Piski in hungarian.

Motzan is 100% romanian (Moţan, means from moţi land) and Carp is also 100% romanian in the same spelling.

I dont know what could be the nationality of V. Czeck, i asume as Denes did that this one can be of slav origin.

The religion of this people might be relevant about their national origin. If they are non-ortodox or non-greekcatholic, they are almost sure not romanian or at least romanians on the way of germanisation or else. The overwhelming majority of romanians are ortodox and a much little number are greekcatholic in Transilvania. Insignifiant number of romanians are of other religion than above.

C'mon 21inf, your fantasy is soaring again (bati câmpii). ANY name can be somehow Rumanised, or vice versa (for example, Motzan can be a person from the locality of Moca, currently in Slovakia, inhabited mostly by Hungarians --> this is, of course, only a joke).

This is what I was exactly afraid of, namely if we will find several Hungarian names among the fallen soldiers somehow you will explain to us how they are actually not Hungarians, but Rumanians (or Magyarised Rumanians).
Apparently, no proof can persuade you to admit that your theories centering around Hungary and the Hungarians are sometimes wrong.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. BTW, Szemerjai (i.e., a person from Szemerja) refers to a small locality in Covasna County (the name coming from Szent Maria, or St. Mary), inhabited mostly by Hungarians/Seklers.

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 18, 2009 09:28 pm

Thanks, Denes, for drawing my atention about "batutul campilor".

I have no intention to give an oposite opinion to yours, i was just giving an alternative to romanians who dont speak hungarian at all, in comparison whith me who i'm speaking a little and you who are speaking very well as your mother language. I myself agreed your opinion about slavic name of Czeck.
Also, being romanian from Transilvania, I know beter that my fellow romanians from Regat how were translated romanian names in hungarian and the fact that religion is the "hallmark" of transilvanian romanian. Even a part of my family was in this situation previously ww1 and even in ww2. In this fashion i have an uncle who has even today the family name "Gondor Gabor" (sorry that i dont have hungarian punctuation to be exact), but he was "Creţu Gavrilă" in romanian and his religion was ortodox. Also, another from my family was "Balogh Togyer" in ww2, but his name is Bologa Toader and he is also ortodox. Just two examples from my family regarding conection between translated names in hungarian/romanian religion.

If I am hard to be convinced about some issues, it is probably because i'm as stubborn as my "moţi" ancestors were, in which case guilty is the genetic (just kidding).

Finally, just a joke: Szent Maria and Szemerja can be Sânmărie or Sântămărie

Denes, no intention from my part to offence you or your nation and no intention to say something just to be against you. If you are right with Szemerjai, i'm glad at least that you corected me and i had the oportunity to learn something new and improve my hungarian knowledge. Thanks!

21inf, no doubt magyarization did happen, not only in Transylvania, but in the entire Hungarian Kingdom. For example, one could be member of the élite vitéz order, established by Horthy in 1920, only if he had a Hungarian sounding name. Accordingly, many soldiers with German names changed their names into Hungarian ones.

However, Rumanization equally happened in Transylvania, after 1919. To stick to my family, in my mother's native village near Reghin, back then inhabited by Hungarians and Saxons, my great uncle was a teacher in the local school. After the Rumanians came in in 1919, he was offered to keep his job only if he Rumanized his name, from the Hungarian Borsos (i.e., one who is 'peppered') to Borşoş. Only two small commas under the s-es. Nevertheless, he did not agree, and subsequently was fired, his place being taken by a native Rumanian coming from the 'Regat' (i.e. pre-W.W. 1 Rumania), who did not speak either Hungarian or German.

Or, my father, born in 1927, was not allowed officially to have a Hungarian Christian name; therefore, he became Dionisie instead of Dénes (he could regain his real name only after he moved in Hungary in the early 1990s).

However, all these are history now, and in our common European Union nothing like this can (should) happen any more.

That's exactly my point raised at the beginning of this long and windy thread. Namely, in the XXIst Century, in a EU member state like Rumania is, it sould be OK to list the name of Hungarian soldiers who died for their country almost a century ago, not only of Germans and Austrians, who came from far away to die in a foreign land.
My opinion.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. You see, I also learn some Rumanian here. I just realised that it should be "batutul campilor", instead of "batutul campiilor", as I would have said.

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 19, 2009 09:34 pm

New pics I took from Oarba de Mures ww2 romanian military cemetery.