Romanian Royal Aeronautics - correct or not?

ROMAIAN AERONAUTIC was born after the Royal Decree No.3199/30.04.1913 witch apeared in the "Monitorul Oficial" No.5/03.05.1913.This name was not changed till 1948,there is no other decree to modify this name.In 1947 when the King was on strike,the AR was the only part of R.Army witch was on his side and took de name Royal Romanian Aeronautic,but not oficialy.Until somebody produce an decree with RRA...

How do you know that ? Did you check all the "Monitorul oficial" from 1913 to 1945 ?

And how was changed in 1948 ?. With official decree in "Monitorul oficial" ?

Hi Cantacuzino,

Although George may have been over definite, I think his basic logic is right. We can only work on verifiable hard facts. Royal Decree 3119 of 30.04.14 appears to be such a verifiable hard fact.

Denes has produced very strong evidence that ARR was in common usage in official circles in later decades, but it would presumably require a later Royal Decree to supersede 3119 before ARR could become the Romanian air force's title officially. This has yet to be produced.

This little controversy is an interesting example of how we should never take anything for granted, no matter how long it has been generally accepted fact.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid,

What is interesting the first official name (with royal decree) was done in 1913 by the king Carol I who was not born romanian (Hohenzollern family). Probably in those days was a political decision not to add "Royal" to the "Romanian Aeronautic". Some of the romanian aviation pionniers were from the middle classe (like Vlaicu ) and the Royal family was still considered foreigner in the ordinary people eyes.
But later if this name was not official changed ( for adding "Royal") was a BIG MISTAKE.
I can't figure how the ships were Royal property and the planes were not.

Cheers,
Dan.

Hi Dan,

When did the Romanian Air Force become an independent force from the Army and Navy? If it wasn't from 1913, this might give a date for ARR to become the official title.

At the time of the 1913 Romanian royal decree there was no British independent air force. Until 1 April 1918 it was under the Army and Navy as the RFC and RNAS respectively. The US air force did not become independent, I think, until after WWII.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. I don't think there was a separate Romanian Air Ministry until the late 1930s.

Another indirect proof I just came across while looking for some data.
The joint German-Rumanian fighter unit, set up in the Spring of 1943 at Kramatorskaya, was officially called in German documents: 'Deutsch-Königlich Rumänisch Jagdverband', i.e. German-Royal Rumanian Fighter Unit.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 05, 2005 07:15 pm

Sid,
The photocopies presented by Denes are a solid support for his point. Unfortunately for you, the photocopies are in Romanian language.

I hope you agree that in this particular matter, between the original Romanian documents printed in the 40's and your "youth English language publications", the one to be trusted are the Romanian prints of the 40's.

Yeahh... Thanks!

This post has been edited by Florin on November 07, 2005 02:24 am

Florin, things are not as simple as they appear. I have gone through my list of decrees for the Virtutea Aeronautica Order and have several examples that don't mention the "royal" part of ARR.

Royal Decree No. 1841/20 June 1933, published in Monitorul Oficial No. 147/30 June 1933:



I can also quote the Royal Decree No. 1813/28 May 1932 published in Monitorul Oficial No. 131/7 June 1932, which I have copied by hand:

or the Royal Decree No. 2595/24 JUne 1939 published in Monitorul Oficial No. 149/1 July 1939 (for "Pufi" Popescu)

or the Royal Decree No. 2842/11 Ocotber 1941 for the decoration of Göring

Yes, there are documents, where only Aeronautica Romana, Aeronautica Militara, or simply Aeronautica are mentioned; however, those are merely the abbreviated forms of the Aeronautica Regala Romana, done to save printing space or simply due to sloppyness.

Since Aeronautica Regala, or Aeronautica Regala Romana is mentioned many times, that should be considered as the complete, official form.

Take, for example, the pre-1947 usage of 'România'. This short form can be seen often in official documents; however, we all know that the complete, official form was Regatul Român.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 07, 2005 04:27 pm

Hi Florin,

That particular post of mine was written tongue-in-cheek, not as a serious commentary.

Of course English-language publications are no primary authority on this subject.

However, they are not likely to have invented "FARR" themselves. They probably got it from a Romanian source in the first place. (I think they thought the "F" stood for the Romanian equivalent of "Force", as in "RAF". I will check).

Denes's sources are solid as evidence of common official usage, and from my point of view ARR seems the most functional of the alternatives on offer. However, his sources are not necessarily decisive in any discussion of the official name, which presumably must have been established by Royal Decree. It is entirely possible that common usage and the official title were not necessarily the same.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S.

Might I suggest again that the document that split the joint naval and air ministry into two separate ministries in the late 1930s may be of some help in this?

Sid.

Sid, the pages presented as proof were copied from Monitorul Oficial (The Official Monitor), where all of Rumania's laws were officially printed, and not just from any publication of common usage.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 07, 2005 04:26 pm

Hi Denes,

That is why I originally wrote "common official usage".

Circumstantially you have made a very good case for "ARR" in common official usage, but until someone turns up a document that officially supersedes "AR" with "ARR" it isn't a conclusive one as regards the official title.

Cheers,

Sid.

Using this logic, the official title should be: Aeronautica Militara Regala Romana.

Contrary to Aeronautica Regala Romana, I have never seen the form suggested by you (Aeronautica Militara Regala Romana) spelled out in this form in official documents. Have you?

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 08, 2005 12:39 am