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Romanian & Hungarian war-crimes

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dragos

Posted: October 22, 2004 10:44 pm

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QUOTE

There were abuses, mistakes, arrests and murders [made by Hungarians] - this is unquestionable. Nevertheless, unlike the 1944 September-October anti-Hungarian vengeance campaign, these events were far from being organized.

The article tends to attribute Romanians an overreaction to the crimes of Hungarians in the same area. I have to refute the above statement. My grandfather, who fought in Transylvania at Toplita-Prunisor, was eye witness of columns of Romanian refugees, who said that the Hungarians soldiers were burning their houses in their controlled regions.

Victor

Posted: October 23, 2004 09:41 am

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QUOTE (dragos @ Oct 22 2004, 10:08 PM)

Unlike the previous document, this one deserves attention. It focuses around the crimes of the Black Coats (Sutanele Negre) under the leadership of Gavril Olteanu.

That is Sumanele Negre. The article has been presented on the forum in another threads and it is clearly more scholarly written and researched.

dragos	Posted: October 23, 2004 11:49 am
Admin Group: Admin Posts: 2397 Member No.: 2 Joined: February 11, 2003	Yes, I knew that, but I was thinking exactly to that error when I was typing and I have made it myself. The article use the term Black Hundreds

Takács Péter	Posted: October 25, 2004 07:17 am
Soldat Group: Members Posts: 13 Member No.: 364 Joined: October 07, 2004	Oh!Olteanus crime not crime!I understand.And burning houses bigger crime like died thousands......Hm it is interesting!

aerialls	Posted: October 25, 2004 08:39 am
Fruntas Group: Members Posts: 75 Member No.: 157 Joined: December 04, 2003	Olteanu's crimes were an act of "unjustifieble" (if i may call it so)... "revenge"... I think you know that allready, but you are still boiling waters around here... Still here?

dragos

Posted: October 25, 2004 09:02 am

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QUOTE (Takács Péter)

Oh!Olteanus crime not crime!

Nobody said that.

QUOTE

And burning houses bigger crime like died thousands

I didn't say that either. I said that the abuses, mistakes, arrests and murders made by Hungarians were organized too.

Takács Péter	Posted: October 25, 2004 09:10 am
Soldat Group: Members Posts: 13 Member No.: 364 Joined: October 07, 2004	I did show to you reminiscences of eyewitnesses and list of the victims with name,date and place.You can't show me anything! Revenge?I beleive some things about the Hungarian army and gendarment but i think it was the reveage about what started at 1918 and finished in 1940! The crime is crime!Irrespectively of who made. Show me datas!

dragos

Posted: October 25, 2004 09:46 am

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QUOTE (Takács Péter)

I did show to you reminiscences of eyewitnesses and list of the victims with name,date and place.You can't show me anything!

It has been discussed, only it seems you don't want to see!

Some of what has already been mentioned on this forum:

Treznea - 9 September 1940: 87 Romanians and 6 Jews killed

Ip - 14 September 1940: 157 killed

Sarmasu - 5 September - 10 October 1944: 126 Jews, 39 Romanians killed

Killed at Sarmasu:

QUOTE

dr. Banu Vasile (n. 1918, com. Mociu/Cluj, primpretorul Plasei Sarmasu, impuscat la marginea localitatii); plut. maj. Teodor Jucan (n. 1882 Buza/Cluj, fost sef al postului de jandarmi din Sarmasu/Mures, impuscat la coltul padurii comunei Camarasu/Cluj); Iuliu Moldovan (n. 1916, com. Catina/Cluj, contabilul Plasei Sarmasu/Mures); Ioan Moldovan (n. 1906, primarul com. Gabud/Alba); Alexandru Fizesean (n. 1896, com. Catina/Cluj, impuscat la coltul padurii Camarasu/Cluj; in urma lui au ramas 5 copii orfani); Vasile Micu (de 71 ani, preot, com. Sarmasu/Mures, participant la Marea Unire din 1 Decembrie 1918 de la Alba Iulia); Petru Cadar (61 de ani, taran roman din Sarmasu/Mures); Letitia Rusu (17 ani, impuscata la fantana in Catina/Cluj); Solomon Istoc (de 18 ani, din Grebenisu de Campie/Mures); serg. Iulian Predescu (seful Pichetului de graniceri Marasesti/Band); Zachei Seulean (71 de ani, taran din Grebenisu de Campie/Mures); sold. Barbu Radu (de 22 de ani, granicer, nascut in comuna Petresti/Dambovita, impuscat la pichetul Visuia); Ioan Gorea (n. 1925, in Visuia); Maria Gorea (mama, satul Visuia/Bistrita-Nasaud); Sofia Harsan (n. 1874, mama, satul Visuia/Bistrita-Nasaud); Eugen Harsan (n. 1925, fiul, satul Visuia/Bistrita-Nasaud); Ioan Loga (de 70 de ani, din Geaca/Cluj); Ioan Miron (71 de ani, din Geaca/Cluj); Ilonka Takacs (27 de ani, din Geaca, unguroaica, casatorita cu roman, in urma ei au ramas 5 copii orfani); Maria Rusu (de 2 ani, mama unguroaica); Ioan Teglas (20 de ani), Vasile Suciu (de 52 de ani); Ilisie Suciu (42 de ani); Cioba Viorel (de 3 ani); Maria Catinean (49 de ani); Tanasie Baciu (23 de ani, soldat din Regimentul 83 _ infanterie Turda, sosit acasa in acea zi in permisie); Ioan Lucaciu (40 de ani); Miron Filip (67 de ani), toti din Geaca/Cluj; Mihaly Estera (19 ani, evreica); Mihaly Rozalia (evreica, de 17 ani); Iosif Moldovan (taran); Ioan Cat (taran), toti din Sucutard/Cluj; sold. Ioan Gainusa, (de 22 de ani, n. Magureni/Prahova); sold. Gheorghe Pana (22 de ani, granicer, impuscat la Sarmasel/Mures); sold. Nicolae C. Nicolae (22 de ani, n. Hotcarau/Prahova, impuscat la Pogaceaua); sold. Florian Popa (granicer, de 22 de ani, n. Corbesti/Bihor, impuscat la Pogaceaua); sold. Gheorghe Ciulei (23 de ani, n. Ramnicu Valcea/Valcea, impuscat la Iclandu Mare/Mures); Ioan Craifalean (n. 1888, fost primar, impuscat in Iclanzel/Mures); Vasile Padurean (de 54 de ani, taran din Valea Larga/Mures); sold. Alexandru Bexa (granicer, n. Cacuciu/Mures), sold. Gheorghe Florea (din Reg. 7 _ graniceri Alba Iulia, ucis in Valea Larga/Mures) si altii

http://www.cuvantul-liber.ro/articol.asp?ID=11032

QUOTE (Takács Péter)

The crime is crime!Irrespectively of who made

I agree with this.

Takács Péter	Posted: October 25, 2004 11:26 am
Soldat Group: Members Posts: 13 Member No.: 364 Joined: October 07, 2004	I heard the 126 jews victims at Nagysármás but the romanians not.In your list i see a lot of armymen.They were prisoners or died in battle?

Takács Péter	Posted: October 25, 2004 11:47 am
Soldat Group: Members Posts: 13 Member No.: 364 Joined: October 07, 2004	Anyway you can find a lot of interestings at: http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/index.htm

dragos

Posted: October 25, 2004 12:30 pm

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QUOTE (Takács Péter @ Oct 25 2004, 02:26 PM)

I heard the 126 jews victims at Nagysármás but the romanians not.In your list i see a lot of armymen.They were prisoners or died in battle?

The Romanians killed were villagers and soldiers captured during the battles of Oarba de Mures - Ludus - Chetani.

Takács Péter	Posted: October 25, 2004 12:52 pm
Soldat Group: Members Posts: 13 Member No.: 364 Joined: October 07, 2004	And do you see any different about this and the prisoners camps(more thousands) victims?

dragos	Posted: October 25, 2004 01:41 pm
Admin Group: Admin Posts: 2397 Member No.: 2 Joined: February 11, 2003	What prisoner camps are you speaking about? Shooting prisoners is a crime, no matter where they are.

Takács Péter	Posted: October 25, 2004 01:53 pm
Soldat Group: Members Posts: 13 Member No.: 364 Joined: October 07, 2004	Yes,shooting is a crime!But to martyr and to famish to die too.Like at Gyulafehérvár and Brassó.

Chandernagore	Posted: October 25, 2004 02:54 pm
Locotenent colonel Group: Banned Posts: 818 Member No.: 106 Joined: September 22, 2003	Frankly I'm not sure where all of this is headed, with both sides just lobbing hot potatoes on the opponent's head. I'm not even sure wether the casualty count from atrocities can reveal something we didn't know or help explaining anything at all. What make me smile, but it shouldn't, is how one people's "massacre" becomes another people's "affair" or "revenge" in a war of words trying to take root in past ghosts. Rather futile. This post has been edited by Chandernagore on October 25, 2004 02:56 pm

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