Light Weapons in Romanian Service

I collect small arms used by the Romanian Military, mainly bolt action rifles and pistols. I would like to know if anybody has more detailed information as to what weapons were in service with the Romanian Military during the period of the two world wars. I have already purchased a few examples; Mauser(K-98 and VZ24), Mosin Nagant(M1891/30 and M44), Mannlicher Steyr(M-95 Short and M-95 Long), but there have to be more weapons used in this period. My first concern is French rifles; has Romania used any bolt action rifles, such as the Lebel, Berthier or MAS 36 ? How about the Winchester Mod. 1894, which is believed has seen limited service after many were captured from the Turks in 1877-78.
Then there are the handguns; I've noticed that the main site, http://www.worldwar2.ro lists only a couple pistols as being in Romanian service, leaving out the Walter P-38 and the Walter PP and Walter PPK; I am not 100% positive that these were in service, but I personally believe they were in use because the Walter PP is technically still in service with the Romanin Police and MoD under the name of M-95 or Carpati. The list also lacks the TT-33(Tokarev), which must have been in service in limited numbers, probably captured; this is only a speculation, I do not have any numbers. The TT is also still being used by Romanian Police and Military today awaiting replacement by a "better" 9mm weapon such as the Glock 17(off-topic).

This post has been edited by Suburban on March 22, 2005 03:32 pm

Hello and welcome to the forum!

Here is a list of rifles used by Romanian Army during the two world wars:
- 6.5mm Mannlicher model 1893
- 7.92mm Mouscheton model 1890
- 7.62mm Mosin Nagant model 1891
- 7.92mm Mauser model 1898
- 8mm Lebel model 1917
- 8mm Mannlicher model 1895
- 7.92mm ZB model 1924
- 7.62mm Mosin Nagant model 1891/30

And pistols/revolvers:
- 9mm Steyr model 1912
- 8mm spanish model 1915
- 8mm Saint-Etienne model 1896
- 9mm Beretta model 1934
- 7.65mm Walther PP model 1929
- 7.65mm Walther PPK model 1931
- 9mm Walther model 1938
- 9mm Luger model 1908
- 9mm Browning model 1910/22
- 7.62 TT model 1933
- 7.62mm Nagant model 1895

In fact, Romanian Army had the Steyr Mannlicher 1893 Model bolt action rifle,Known as Romanian model, not the 1895 stright pull one. Also, the Berthier 1907/15. No MAS 36
About revolvers, the 1915 model is not spanish, but the belgian Pieper Perfectionne. The spanish one is a S&W copy of the 44 cal break top open model, probably made by Orbea Hermanos.It can be easily recognised by the year 1916 on the grips.

Cristian, thanks for addition. I compiled the list from the books "Istoria infanteriei romane" vol.II and "Armata Romana 1941-1945" RAI 1996.

But do you say that the 8mm (or 7.92mm retubed) Mannlicher 1895 rifle was not in the service of Romania Army?

The 1895 was standard rifle for austro-hungarians. Romania adopted an improved model called "Pusca romana model 1893 "in 6,5 mm Mannlicher caliber( a revolutionnary small caliber at that time).The locking machanism of those models are completely different,only the feeding mechanism is similar.I noticed our historians are not very familiar with weapons....Notice also that Romania had the Mauser 98K, not the Mauser 1898 wich is slightly much longer...

See romanian Mannlicher here
http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/rifles/armagm.htm
The 1895s were captured rifles from Hungary and Bulgaria

The same caliber was also adopted by the (then) Royal Portuguese Army, exactly for the same type of rifle - a Mannlicher turn bolt design, whose mechanism later inspired the local Vergueiro bolt, used in the Mauser-Vergueiro. The Portuguese Mannlichers were known as M.1896 and Steyr built 8.000. It is perhaps interesting to note that most of the actions were taken from the original Romanian contract... that's why some Portuguese guns have Romanian markings on them, even in the action, namely the Phoenix stamped just on the right side of the bolt enclosure. However, the action ring always bears the cypher of King Carlos I, as also found in the Mauser M.1904 and early Portuguese Lugers (please see photo below - from private collection).
Of course, the caliber is identical to the Romanian - 6,5x53R. This cartridge is known either as "Romanian" or "Dutch". Dutch also, because Mannlicher turn bolts were also adopted (and later built locally, at the State Arsenal, in Hemburg) by the Dutch, a country which retained them until World War II: later on, and after the Japanese invaded the Dutch East Indies, the 6,5mm Mannlicher carbines, much more handy for jungle fighting than the long rifles, were re-bored and re-chambered for .303 British at the SAF Lithgow facility in Australia. The same sort of conversion was later done by the newly independent state of Indonesia, albeit in a much cruder way.

The Romanian army captured hefty numbers of Austro-Hungarian M.1895's straight-pull rifles and carbines. I don't know if any of these were re-bored or re-tubed, but at the Yugoslavs at least have done that with some captured M.1895 (it is not advisible to shoot a refurbished Yugoslav M.1895 in 7,92mm though, because the ballistics of the 7,92x57 round are a bit too hot for the straight-pull bolt to handle...).

Ruy

Attached Image

And here's a photo (same private source) of the complete carbine... or rather a "short rifle" for the late XIX/early XX standards: the official designation was "Espingarda Portuguesa Modelo 1896".

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on March 23, 2005 10:50 am

Attached Image

Thak you Ruy for your precious details!
Suburban, I don't know if romanians used 1894 captured Winchesters , but you must notice a more important aspect: in 1869 the romanian government bought from USA the Ball's repeating rifle , adopted as "Carabina Lamson, model 1869"
Even in small number, those guns equiped the geandarmerie squadrons in Bucarest(escadronul de jandarmi calari din Bucuresti), but made Romania the first state, as I know, who introduced officialy a central fire repeating rifle(Romanian historians, where are you? )
http://www.armchairgunshow.com/images/MW-Ball.jpg

Yes, in Romania the Mannlicher 1895 rifles were re-calibred for 7.92mm.

We are building the list of all the rifles used by Romanian army during WW1 and WW2, either imported or captured.

Dragos, do you know when was the conversion put into effect? Any numbers? The Yugoslav converted rifles were usually cut-down, standard M 1895 long rifles (not Stutzen carbines). The degree of modifications was quite wide and it included the replacement of the Austrian-style barrel bands by Mauser-like ones, with spring-loaded steel retainers fitted in the stock. The upper hand-guard was very Mauser-like, with the classic bulge in the area surrounding the back sight, which was newly manufactured (a Mauser-like tangent sight). The new front band had a bayonet lug underneath. Finally, the front sight was also modified, using the same parts as in the F.N. Mauser Model 1924 (also built locally at Kragujevac). The lenght was that of a "short rifle", 1130mm, not of a cavalry carbine - this was done in an attempt to standarize the lenght of the several rifles in the use by the Royal Yugoslav Army, keeping the Mauser Model 1924 as a model.
Do you know if the modifications made by the Romanian arsenals were also that extensive? Or were the guns simply re-chambered and re-bored (or re-tubed)? I will appreciate any information on this subject. Thanks in advance.
Cheers,

Ruy

P.S./Edit: Forgot to add that the converted Yugoslav M 1895's rifles were renamed M95M, the last "M" meaning "Mauser", which is logical because a good deal of effort was made in order to make them look very much like Mausers externally. The receivers were even transformed to use standard Mauser charger clips.

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on March 23, 2005 09:34 pm

I'll check the books when I get home, but I doubt I have detailed information on this subject. I remember only a footnote mentioning *recalibred for 7.92mm* for the 8mm Mannlicher model 1895 rifles.

Thanks anyway. Information on the captured Mannlichers is much appreciated.

Unfortunatelly no additional info on the 1895 rifle, except that part of them were modified to fire the standard 7.92mm cartridge.

In "Istoria infanteriei romane" I've came across the following information: at the begining of WW1, militia troops were armed with 11mm model 1879 rifles. What kind of rifles were these?