Romanian Military History Forum - Part of Romanian Army in the Second World War Website



  Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> Bessarabia campaign, Soviet armor strength
zmoney
Posted: January 23, 2006 08:10 am
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4
Member No.: 791
Joined: January 23, 2006



Hello, I am currently making a scenario for CMBB and was wondering what kind of armor and in what numbers the rusky's had in Bessarabia in August-41. From what I have read I assume that they had some BT-7's and T-26 tanks. I thought they might of had some T-34's as well but from reading about deferent Romanian battles taking place in 42 it seems that 42 was the first time Romanians ever encountered the T-34.

So if someone out there can give me a rough estimate on what the Russians had and in what numbers, that would be appreciated.
PMEmail Poster
Top
D13-th_Mytzu
Posted: January 23, 2006 08:42 am
Quote Post


General de brigada
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1058
Member No.: 328
Joined: August 20, 2004



No T34 ni '41 in Basarbia as I recall. If you are interested in romanian armours, I recommend you read about it here:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/oob/?section=14
http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?section=19
PMUsers Website
Top
zmoney
Posted: January 23, 2006 03:30 pm
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4
Member No.: 791
Joined: January 23, 2006



Thanks, but I have been scrounging this site on Romanian armor for weeks already. I just need to know what the Romanians were up against. Like what armor the Russians had in this area and in what numbers.
PMEmail Poster
Top
dragos03
Posted: January 23, 2006 03:54 pm
Quote Post


Capitan
*

Group: Members
Posts: 641
Member No.: 163
Joined: December 13, 2003



They didn't have T-34 but i think they had a number of heavy tanks (T-28 and KVs).
PM
Top
Victor
Posted: January 23, 2006 05:19 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4350
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



The 2nd Mechanized Corps had 517 tanks on 22 June 1941, of which 10 were KV-1 heavy tanks and 50 were T-34 medium tanks, all grouped in the 11th Tank Division. The rest of that division's equipment were T-26 light tanks. The 16th Tank and the 15th Motorized Divisions were equipped BT-5 and BT-7 light tanks. The 18th Mechanized Corps was in a worse situation. It had only 282 tanks . The 44th and 47th Tank Divisions had only T-26s and the 218th Motorized Division had no tanks at all. On paper, this was a considerable force, but the Soviets were also plagued by problems with the equipment, especially the divisions of the 18th Mechanized Corps, which were formed about the same time as the Romanian 1st Armored Division.

The two mechanized corps were pulled out of Bessarbia and engaged in the battle of Uman. There were no major engagements with Romanian forces.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
zmoney
Posted: January 24, 2006 01:55 am
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4
Member No.: 791
Joined: January 23, 2006



QUOTE (Victor @ Jan 23 2006, 05:19 PM)
The 2nd Mechanized Corps had 517 tanks on 22 June 1941, of which 10 were KV-1 heavy tanks and 50 were T-34 medium tanks, all grouped in the 11th Tank Division. The rest of that division's equipment were T-26 light tanks. The 16th Tank and the 15th Motorized Divisions were equipped BT-5 and BT-7 light tanks. The 18th Mechanized Corps was in a worse situation. It had only 282 tanks . The 44th and 47th Tank Divisions had only T-26s and the 218th Motorized Division had no tanks at all. On paper, this was a considerable force, but the Soviets were also plagued by problems with the equipment, especially the divisions of the 18th Mechanized Corps, which were formed about the same time as the Romanian 1st Armored Division.

The two mechanized corps were pulled out of Bessarbia and engaged in the battle of Uman. There were no major engagements with Romanian forces.

Thanks for your informative reply Victor. So what I gathered in your statements is that Romanian armor and Soviet armor never met? Did the Soviets have any armor in Bessarabia at the time of the retaking in August?

This post has been edited by zmoney on January 24, 2006 01:55 am
PMEmail Poster
Top
Victor
Posted: January 24, 2006 07:07 am
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4350
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



They met, on several occasions, but the Soviets were never more than company strength. By the time Stavka decided to keep Bessarabia and ordered Tiulenev to retake it around mid-month in July, I believe that most of the armor has already retreated East of the Dnestr.

The biggest engagement between Romanian and Soviet tanks was on 5 July 1941 at Bratuseni. Soviet armor from the 2nd Mechanized Corps counterattacked the positions of the German 203rd Infantry Regiment and took Hill258 near bratuseni. The Germans called for the intervention of the Romanian tanks. Their report mentioned 40-50 tanks enemy, which undoubtedly was an exagerrated figure. The 1st Armored Division engaged the 1st Battalion/1sttank Regiment, supported by two artillery battalions and one AT company, which pounded the hill as the 46 R-2s advanced on it. The Soviets were forced to abandon the position they took. Two heavy tanks remained knocked out on the field (so it was possibly the 11th Tank Division, which was the only one equipped with such tanks), while the Romanians lost one tank, due to friendly fire.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
sid guttridge
Posted: January 26, 2006 12:03 pm
Quote Post


Locotenent colonel
*

Group: Members
Posts: 862
Member No.: 591
Joined: May 19, 2005



Hi victor,

The article on Romanian armour in Slavic Military Studies mentions this issue. It points out that while English-language publications, such as "Third Axis, Fourth Ally", have picked up on the large deployment of Soviet tanks in Basarabia immediately before the war, they have not detected that most of them were transferred out of Basarabia north to face the Germans attacking from Poland before the Romanians attacked.

This said, even Soviet rifle divisions had integral light tank units at the outbreak of war, so the absence of higher Soviet tank formations did not mean there was an absence of Soviet tanks.

I believe there is a photo of one of the knocked out Soviet heavy tanks, possibly a T-28. Have you seen it? There is also a photo of a Romanian R-35 towing an abandoned Soviet BT light tank in "Third Axis, Fourth Ally". Add these to the photo of a captured T-26 photo already on Feldgrau and one probably has a good cross section of the types of Soviet armour in the theatre.

Cheers,

Sid.

PMEmail Poster
Top
Victor
Posted: January 26, 2006 07:50 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4350
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



Glantz mentiuons the 18th Mechanized Corps as arriving too late to take part in the fighting on 10-14 July between the German 6th Army and the 31st Rifle, 9th, 19th and 22nd Mechanized Corps, which were trying to rescue the 7th Rifle Corps encircled onm the Sluch River. He also mentions that Stavka ordered Tiulenev to deploy the 2nd Mechanized Corps in the Uman region on 17 July. This means that the corps were already on the other side of the Dnestr at those dates.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
dragos
Posted: January 26, 2006 10:04 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 2397
Member No.: 2
Joined: February 11, 2003



QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Jan 26 2006, 03:03 PM)
I believe there is a photo of one of the knocked out Soviet heavy tanks, possibly a T-28. Have you seen it? There is also a photo of a Romanian R-35 towing an abandoned Soviet BT light tank in "Third Axis, Fourth Ally". Add these to the photo of a captured T-26 photo already on Feldgrau and one probably has a good cross section of the types of Soviet armour in the theatre.

I have seen a photo of Romanian soldiers examining a disabled T-28 heavy tank, many years ago, at the history museum in Buzau. There is also a propaganda footage with Romanian soldiers igniting a T-28 tank here:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...findpost&p=4432

The picture about the R-35 towing the BT-2 tank is this:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/foto/?id=53§ion=19&article=237
PMUsers WebsiteYahoo
Top
Victor
Posted: January 31, 2006 06:57 am
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 4350
Member No.: 3
Joined: February 11, 2003



Also, the 2nd Cavalry Corps had 129 BT-5 tanks. Each of its divisions had a tank regiment in its organization and apparently they were at full strength. I suspect these were the Soviet armored forces which saw most of the action in Bessarabia in 1941 after the 2nd and 18th Mechanized Corps were pulled out.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

Topic Options Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

 






[ Script Execution time: 0.0527 ]   [ 14 queries used ]   [ GZIP Enabled ]