MGs in Romanian army, around 1912-1919, ... how many, what models

I reiterate my older concern about the number and type of MGs existent in Romanian army at the beginning of WW 1. According to Istoria militara a poporului roman, a number of Austrian Swarzlose 8 mm MGs had been ordered sometime between the end of 1912 and the beginning of WW 1. According to alternative sources, had they really been ordered? Were they ever delivered by Austria-Hungary to Romania, and if yes when and in what number?

Thank you!

This post has been edited by Agarici on February 11, 2006 03:53 pm

One Schwarzlose 8mm MG is displayed in Bucharest Military Museum (Muzeul Militar Central) but I don't know if is a captured MG or from the ordered Austrian batch.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on February 11, 2006 10:41 pm

Years ago I saw one Schwarlose MG on display in a village school museum,near Ploiesti.I restored it for free! The firing mechanism and barrel were in mint condition,with original blueing, ready to fire! So , count two!

That's a good one! We could organize an infantry, or at least a cavalry regiment, and invade... should we try Caracal? Cause in the meantime Austria has moved away from us.

This post has been edited by Agarici on February 12, 2006 06:46 am

Schwarzlose machine-guns ordered before the outbreak of the war should have been chambered for the standard Romanian rifle round, the 6,5x53,5R (also known as 6,5x54R) Mannlicher. The task was easy, given the similarity between the Austro-Hungarian regulation round, the 8x50R and the 6,5x53,5R. Both were rimmed. Besides, the Dutch, who used the same round in their turnbolt Mannlichers, also bought the Schwarzlose from Steyr as M.08/15 chambered for the 6,5x53,5R. Later on, they started building the gun under licence at the Hemburg arsenal. Some Dutch guns were re-chambered from 1925 onwards for a proprietary 7,92 rimmed round, used only by machine gun units.
Of course, Austro-Hungarian M.08/12 MGs captured by the Romanian army had to be in 8x50R.

According the first volume of “Romania in Razboiul Mondial” published by the General Staff in the 1930s, in summer 1916 Romania, who badly needed automatic weapons, received 88 Schwarzlose HMG from Russia (probably captured during the previous years). It was no time to change the caliber, from standard Austrian 8 mm into the Romanian 6.5mm, and I think this operation was difficult for Romanian industry. Romanian army already used the Austrian 8x50 round for the 60,000 M.89 and M.95 Mannlicher rifles acquired in a hurry in 1913 to round the Romanian army equipping during the Second Balkan War.
Until the end of 1916, 50 Schwarzlose HMGs were lost in action. In 1917, Russia supplied a number of captured Schwarzlose HMGs, of the same 8x50 mm caliber.
But the greatest number of Austrian HMGs was captured after the war, in Transylvania and Hungary, in 1919.
Until the end of 1930s, when the Czech ZB-37 HMG was adopted as the official heavy automatic weapon of the Romanian army, the Russian M.10 Maxim and the Austrian M.07 Schwarzlose HMGs were the most common automatic weapons within the Romanian units.
As the Czech ZB-37 was similar to the Schwarzlose HMG, at the end of 1930s this last model was selected to be transformed to fire the Mauser 7.92x57 cartridge.

Kepi, are you sure about those 8 mm Mannlichers purchased from Austria-Hungary before 1914? I haven’t found anywhere any references to them. I saw you mentioned them before, could you please specify your sources? According to Istoria militara a poporului roman (which use sources from the military archives), 200.000 6,5 Mannlicher rifles and carbines were ordered in December 1912, while the international tension in the Balkans was increasing, to be used in the future war - as shown here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...=15&#entry45127

On the other hand, what Ruy says makes perfect sense, in my opinion (the idea about the 6,5 mm as the "normal" caliber for the MGs produced in Austria for Romania). But the same Istoria militara…, again quoting sources from Romanian military archives, mention, without giving any additional details, that a number of Swarzolse model 1912 8 mm MGs bought from Austria were in service in 1914. They were procured either as a part of the 1912 special credit (see the link above), or following a subsequent purchase order. This is a question which really puzzles me… if anyone could help, any suggestion is welcomed. Are there any references to a 6,5 mm Swarzlose version in service in the Romanian army?

The Schwarzlose I saw was 8mm caliber (X50 I supose)...

I have some doubts concerning “Istoria Militara a Poporului Roman” . I know the historians who wrote the articles (chapters), and I’m not quite sure about their competences on military equipment. Yes, they used the archives but they have to be able to correctly interpret them. Those quantities of weapons were indeed ordered at the end of 1912, but it’s a difference between what the romanian authorities would like to acquire and the real deliveries.
The source I have quoted is still the most important work about WW1. The first volume was published at the middle of 1930s and the last 4th volume, with documents about the 1916 campaign, was published in late 1940s. Unfortunately, the communist regime stopped this project. The four volumes and their annexes contain only documents (orders, tables, etc.) taken from the military archives.
Coming back to the weapons deliveries. Romanian government has released an order for about 100,000 M.93 Mannlicher rifles and 30,000 M.93 Mannlicher carbines, but because their production needed several months, the Romanian army urgently acquired 60,000 M.90 and M.95 Mannlicher rifles, whatever was available in the Austrian army. These weapons were not ordered but simply bought from the austrian arsenals. They had the standard Austrian 8 mm caliber.
As I said before, during the second decade of 20th century, Romanian military industry was not able to re-chamber these rifles, and the authorities consider that it was not necessary because they were waiting for the batch of 100,000 new M.93 Mannlicher rifles heaving the Romanian standard caliber.
Romania never ordered Schwarzlose HMGs. Only 24 M.10 Maxim 6.5 mm cavalry type HMGs were ordered in 1913 to the german factories and delivered a year later, before the WW1 started. All the Schwarzlose HMGs used by Romanian army in WW1 were delivered by Russia, or captured by the Romanians. So they had the austrian 8mm. caliber.

The specifications of 8mm Schwartzlose machine-gun are from the manual:

Cunoaşterea şi întreţinerea mitralierei Schwartzlose Md. 1907/12, cal. 8 m/m., Tipografia Şcolii Militare de Infanterie No. 1, Bucureşti 1931.

The ZB 53 (this was the commercial designation of the heavy MG designed by Václav Holek as an improved derivative of the experimental ZB 50; ZB is an abbreviation of Zbrojovka Brno) didn't need to be transformed to use the 7,92x57 Mauser round, first of all because this was the standard rifle ammunition of the Czechoslovak army at the end of the Thirties. The machine-gun was built from the start by Českolovenská Zbrojovka AS factory chambered for that round; the gun was adopted in Czechoslovak service as vz.37.
There were trial prototypes in 7x57, possibly as a private venture of the company with Latin American markets in mind. The vast majority of the examples actually exported, both before and during the German occupation of the Czech lands, was in 7,92 Mauser: Iran, Romania, Spain, Yugoslavia...
A good source on the history of Czech light weapons (including dead end and prototypes) is České zbraně a střelivo - Vladimír Dolínek, Vladimír Karlický and Pavel Vácha. Brno, Radix, Prague, 1995.

In what regards the Romanian Schwarzlose, I should have written "could have been" instead of "should have been". Moreover, I wasn't thinking of any sort of post-delivery conversion of the gun by Romanian arsenals, but of new guns built by Steyr chambered ab initio for the Romanian round. After all, if this was done for the Dutch, which ordered a relatively small number of guns with the same round specifications, it could have been done also in Romania's case. Of course, this was just an educated guess based on what I know about the Dutch contract. Apparently, and according to the Dutch themselves, the unit price of the Schwarzlose was considerably cheaper than the one asked for German-made Maxims.
On the other hand, I never suggested that captured M.07/12's could have been re-chambered by the Romanian industry.
In stark contrast to the Maxim and its Vickers derivatives, to this date the Schwarzlose hasn't been treated under an exhaustive, monographic perspective by gun historians. It was an important machine gun, used by many countries, that deserves better coverage.

The ZB 53 (this was the commercial designation of the heavy MG designed by Václav Holek as an improved derivative of the experimental ZB 50; ZB is an abbreviation of Zbrojovka Brno) didn't need to be transformed to use the 7,92x57 Mauser round, first of all because this was the standard rifle ammunition of the Czechoslovak army at the end of the Thirties. The machine-gun was built from the start by Českolovenská Zbrojovka AS factory chambered for that round; the gun was adopted in Czechoslovak service as vz.37.
There were trial prototypes in 7x57, possibly as a private venture of the company with Latin American markets in mind. The vast majority of the examples actually exported, both before and during the German occupation of the Czech lands, was in 7,92 Mauser: Iran, Romania, Spain, Yugoslavia...
A good source on the history of Czech light weapons (including dead end and prototypes) is České zbraně a střelivo - Vladimír Dolínek, Vladimír Karlický and Pavel Vácha. Brno, Radix, Prague, 1995.

Ruy, I think Kepi is referring to the Schwarzlose HMG that was transformed from 8x50r to 7,92x57.

The ZB 53 (this was the commercial designation of the heavy MG designed by Václav Holek as an improved derivative of the experimental ZB 50; ZB is an abbreviation of Zbrojovka Brno) didn't need to be transformed to use the 7,92x57 Mauser round, first of all because this was the standard rifle ammunition of the Czechoslovak army at the end of the Thirties. The machine-gun was built from the start by Českolovenská Zbrojovka AS factory chambered for that round; the gun was adopted in Czechoslovak service as vz.37.
There were trial prototypes in 7x57, possibly as a private venture of the company with Latin American markets in mind. The vast majority of the examples actually exported, both before and during the German occupation of the Czech lands, was in 7,92 Mauser: Iran, Romania, Spain, Yugoslavia...
A good source on the history of Czech light weapons (including dead end and prototypes) is České zbraně a střelivo - Vladimír Dolínek, Vladimír Karlický and Pavel Vácha. Brno, Radix, Prague, 1995.

In what regards the Romanian Schwarzlose, I should have written "could have been" instead of "should have been". Moreover, I wasn't thinking of any sort of post-delivery conversion of the gun by Romanian arsenals, but of new guns built by Steyr chambered ab initio for the Romanian round. After all, if this was done for the Dutch, which ordered a relatively small number of guns with the same round specifications, it could have been done also in Romania's case. Of course, this was just an educated guess based on what I know about the Dutch contract. Apparently, and according to the Dutch themselves, the unit price of the Schwarzlose was considerably cheaper than the one asked for German-made Maxims.
On the other hand, I never suggested that captured M.07/12's could have been re-chambered by the Romanian industry.
In stark contrast to the Maxim and its Vickers derivatives, to this date the Schwarzlose hasn't been treated under an exhaustive, monographic perspective by gun historians. It was an important machine gun, used by many countries, that deserves better coverage.

Ruy Aballe
As you see in my quoted sentence, I never said that ZB-53 (VZ-37) HMG was re-chambered for 7.92x57 cartridge. I have asserted that only the last model of the enumerated HMGs (ZB-57 and Schwarzlose) was actually converted to fire the Mauser round. All the weapons acquired by the Romanian state from Czechoslovakia at the and of 1930s (ZB-24 rifle, ZB-30 LMG and ZB-53 HMG), had the same caliber (7.92x57).

I agree with you that the official designation of the Czech HMG was “ZB-53, Model 1937”, according the training manual: “Instructiuni asupra descrierii, functionarii si intretinerii mitralierei ZB-53, model 1937”.

The assertion about the impossibility of 8x50 to 6.5x53 caliber conversion of Austrian weapons (rifles and HMGs) in Romania before and during WW1, was an answer for our Forum colleague, Agarici.

Thanks Minhea, for pointing my mistake.

Kepi, please accept my apologies for having messed up your point. I am very sorry, I was in a rush and I misunderstood your sentence.
Do you know where the conversion job performed on the Romanian Schwarzlose's was done? Interestingly, the Czechoslovak army developed a specific version of the Schwarzlose chambered for the 7,92 Mauser. While some might have been built anew, the majority of these machine guns were converted from 8x50R, using extant parts stocks. The official model designation of the renovated gun was vz. 07/24.

Ruy

PS.: I am well aware about the fact you mentioned, concerning the caliber of all the light weapons exported to Romania by the Czechoslovak arms industry. This is also true in what regards most if not all the guns firing rifle-type ammunition exported at the end of the Thirties to other European clients, some Middle Eastern ones and China.