German WW1 rifle scope

I went to the "International Colector's Fair" taking place this weekend at the Sutu Palace in Bucharest, and although it laked on the militaria side, I did find this:



When I first caught sight of it I thought it to be a russian PU scope for the 1891/31 Moisin Nagant, but closer inspection assured me it was of german origin, and from the previous world war.
It is a telescopic sight for a Mauser Kar 88 or 98 rifle lacking it's mounting system, and as you can see it's in pretty bad shape, with spots of rust all over it. The optics looked even worse, really blurry, and with the reticle in the lower part of the sight, so I discarded it as rubbish.
After further perusing the scap heap...errr.. antique fair, and finding a 5.45 mag belt, a MIG helmet and a few original decorations as the only worthwile pieces, I took another look at the scope, and realised that although the image was blurred, nearby objects apeared to be in focus. This effect can only be obtained if the lenses in the eyepiece are put in the wrong way round, and indeed, this type of telescopic sight, being filled with atmospheric air instead of inert gas like modern ones, had removable end caps allowing acess to the lenses. Furthermore, the end cap on the eyepiece apeared to have been removed recently (see the damage to the two slots in the endcap, hinting to a forceful removal with an inproper tool, like a screwdriver)



So I decided to buy it after all, and I'm glad I did. The blur turned out to be exactly what I hought, so the optics are now cristal-clear, without the yellowish hue some older optics get if they are exposed to direct sunlight for extended periods of time.
The reticle is in the "classic" german style, or #1 as it-s known now, and is in really good shape, despite a few painting problems that were common to this kind of scope, even in WW2. Also, I adjusted the height of the reticle, to the normal position in the middle of the scope, an operation easily acomplished by removing the tuning dial on top of the gunsight, and adjusting the screw underneath. (Although similar in apearance to the russian PU of WW2, german WW1 scopes had only one tuning dial, controling the vertical movement of the reticle)





The deformation of the image as viewed trough the scope is partly due to the camera, as the effect is much more subdued when looking trough it with the naked eye, and it seems to be a hallmark for the early 20th century optics, as many scopes from this periood display the same.



The markings are faintly visible on the left side of the scope, just below the adjuster knob, and read:

B3X
Dr.WALTER GERARD
Charlottenburg
Cew No 830
p

The lowercase "p" looks like a proof marking, and is in the same font as the "m" on some Mauser Kar 98 bayonets.

On the other side, on the dial mounting there is a further serial number, "19908".

Later edit: I managed to dig up a couple of further pieces of informations on the scope.
First off, about the scope's manufacturer, Dr.Walter Gerard. He was a leading optics manufacturer in the first part of the 20th century, based in Charlottenburg, near Berlin. He produced a variety of optical equipment for military purposes such as telescopis sights for MG13 machineguns and OIGEE 1:1 sights for fighter airplanes.
Unfortunately, he went out of business shortly after the end of the First World War, and his floundering company was purchased in 1928 by Landlicht Zielfernrohrbau, also from Berlin, that went on to manufacture rifle scopes all trought WW2.
A second piece of information relates to a telescopic gunsight sold on this online auction site for 320 euros.
The text describing this item reads" Katalog Nr.:1675, Zustand II, Katalogpreis in € 160,-/ Auktions Nr. 135
Zielfernrohr, Länge ca.25,5 cm, bezeichnet: " B3x Dr.
Walter Gerard Charlottenburg Gew. 8991g.", Optik klar, Eisengehäuse brüniert, berieben, partiell etwas flugrostig.
verkauft für € 320"
Translated, this would be: "Catalog Nr.:1675, Condition II, Price in catalog €160, Auction Nr. 135
Rifle Sight, Lenght ca.25,5 cm, marked: " B3x Dr.
Walter Gerard Charlottenburg Gew. 8991g.", Optics clear, blued steel casing , partially incrusted with rust flakes. (the same condition as mine)
bought for €320"
There is also a picture, and as you can see, except for the mounting rings and tuning dial base, it's almost identical (a similar scope, with full rings and different tuning dial base can be found in the may 1994 (244) issue of the "Gazette des Armes", near a Kar 98 and other items relating to the life of german WW1 soldiers)



I also stumbled upon another sale, this time on E-bay, that fetched € 380 for the same type scope...
So mine, at only 100 RON (€28,42- originally, the lady selling it wanted €150 for it, but after extensive bartering and pointing out the poor state of the scope I managed to bring the price down to one third...) was a real steal, even if it's a bit damaged.

This post has been edited by Wings_of_wrath on April 09, 2006 07:56 pm

This is not possible.... when I opened this thread I was reading an article on WWI scoped rifles and at the page I was at there is a German scope very similar to yours . Imagine the odds.

I'm posting the pictures with the German scope.
All the pictures are from "Guns&Ammo Surplus Firearms".

Mihnea, can you bring the magazine with you at the next meeting of the reenacting group, so I can read the article?
The scope I have also looks pretty similar to the one on the top rifle of the picture of the title page, but that is an Enfield!

How much have you paid for it?

With one condition, you will bring the scope.

Edited: Sorry I'm blind.

This post has been edited by mihnea on April 09, 2006 08:53 pm

err... what TWO scopes? I only have one, and I will bring it with me. For the price, as stated in the "later edit", I paid 100 RON (€28,42), but after extensive bartering with the lady selling it.

It doesn’t look similar, and it's an Enfield made in the States.

I edited my earlier post.

Right. It apears I'm blind as well...

Small edit on my first post- You can't make them out in the pictures, but the markings on the left side of the scope look like this:

The bold script stands for markings that are in a different style than the rest- the serial that looks like It's been drawn with an electropencil rather than stamped, and the proof mark that is in a different, italic, lowercase font.
Both are cut deeper than the rest of the markings, and are higly visible even if the rest of the inscription is partially obscured by rust. (somebody apparently attempted to make it more clearly visible, by using some sort of abrasive tool, and a small protion of blueing is missing on the word "Charlottenburg".

Please note that that the penultimate line actually reads "Gew No.." instead of "Cew No.." as I first made out, and that probably means "Gewehr" or the serial number of the rifle this scope was issued to.
For comparison purposes, the sight being sold off on "Hanseatiches-Auktionhaus" is marked "Gew No 8991"...

I wonder how they chose certain rifles to be fitted with scopes. Did they just pick them out at random, or they looked for the ones that performed the best?

The inscription on the other side is straightforward- the number "19908" (probably the scope's serial number), stamped, and with the second "9" a bit out of alingment, like you might find on old typewriters..

Edit: typos, extra explainations.

This post has been edited by Wings_of_wrath on April 11, 2006 02:34 pm

The trace you need to fallow is the mounting type. Untill now, is a hunting rifle scope. If you can provide close pictures of the mounting, maybe I'll tell you more.

It is indeed a posibility, since most WW1 scopes I've seen have mounting rings that are free to move on the scope's body, and slide into a special rail that is fixed on the rifle (be it swallow tail or otherwise), like those in the picture below:


(Picture from http://www.gunsamerica.com)

The telescopic gunsight I have has fixed half-rings (the rear one is actually a quarter-ring ) that end with a screw hole on the bottom. I guess that means that half the mounting system is missing, but anyway, this is unlike I have ever seen or heard, even for hunting scopes.

Cristian, you seem to know more on this field than I (my knowledge of rifle scopes is quite basic , and especially blurry in the area of civillian scopes around WW1), so can you tell me if civillian scopes were marked with the rifle's serial number, and what the proofmark might mean?

Unfortunately, I can't send you a good picture of any (proofmark and mounting) until I get myself a digital camera with a better zoom, so it might take a while...

Edit: typos

This post has been edited by Wings_of_wrath on April 12, 2006 02:29 pm

In WWI many hunting scoped rifle were used to hunt.... people , by hunters that were enrolled. Especially in the first years of war many hunting rifles with scope were "lent" by there owners, some of them personalized and fine tuned, the only problem with most of them is that they were chambered for the old 7,92x57I (round tip) not the IS, that were more powerful (created more pressure) and could blow the breech.

PS Please Cristian and Wings_of_wrath read your PM's.

This post has been edited by mihnea on April 12, 2006 02:40 pm

An example of hunting gun with the same scope

This post has been edited by Cristian on April 16, 2006 06:24 am

That is indeed a scope by the same manufacturer, but it looks quite different from the one I have, including the mounting system.
Anyway, unlike the scope you posted, mine is quite simmilar (except for the mounting rings) to the telescopic sight they actually used during WW1.
However, that doesn't prove anything, as the scope fitted to army rifles might have been based on a civilian model.