recent Mig-21 crash in Romania

[Victor]

Armament orders are not issued because the particular aircraft fits better, but because (hopefully) it is better suited for our requirements. The IAR-95 would have fitted us very nicely, but we did not have the engines for it.
So I guess the F-16 /Jas 39 competition is on. The Mirage 2000, Rafale and Eurofighter have fewer chances.

[inahurry]

Mig29 is present in a too small number in Romania while the Mig21 Lancers were more than 120 pieces (in all variants - ground attack, intercept, double-seat). Now there are with 6 (Victor said 7, maybe he is right) fewer. While the percentage of lost aircraft is rather high, the Lancers flew significantly many more hours, their performance is good and the cost for modernizing them is acceptable (though there are "hidden" costs I think, about participations in Aerostar factory, and we all know how under-evaluated state-owned shares become when sold to foreigners). Only 2 pilots, if not mistaken, died flying Lancers and the last one tried to save the plane and probably hesitated too long before ejecting.

One way or another, all the Lancers fleet will be withdrawn before 2010, more likely 2007-2008 so it is very probable Romania will be left without any significant airforce in a few years. Any rolled-out of the factory gates plane, be it American, french or swedish is simply unaffordable in larger (let's say 3 squadrons) quantities.

My money goes on the American planes. Until now all we bought for the military was Israeli, German, French, British. If we "pass" the Americans this time too I guess they will send those planes here alright, but to bomb us :evil: .

[Der Maresal]

QUOTE

My money goes on the American planes. Until now all we bought for the military was Israeli, German, French, British. If we \"pass\" the Americans this time too I guess they will send those planes here alright, but to bomb us  :evil: .

How about russian planes? They are not so expensive as Western aircraft, plus the russians need money at the moment so they will probabily sell cheaper. Also Romania has experience with russian aicraft ever since World War 2, while with American planes we can not say the same thing. :?

+ One thing that bothers be is the Instrumentation on board American planes which calculate Meters in FEET, and Kilometers in MILES or Nautical Miles, kilograms in pounds and so on.... We are used to the metric system, that's one reason I reject western aircraft. The latest generation russian planes if new and well build are a match, the russians make great designs only that they don't maintain them as well.

Russian planes are cheaper then western planes in cost but not in maintenance.
That's one thing to consider.

Also I think that we are still in the Russian zone of influence, buying western aircraft will be seen as a threat to russia and would make it clear that Romania is in the American campus. That's why a more neutral country like Sweden or even France( )is a more appropriate choice.
* and inahurry just because we don't buy american planes does not mean that they will come and bomb us, unless they find oil in Romania or somthing. :?

[inahurry]

I don't think they will bomb us, of course, but I think we are in their zone of influence.

About the oil, so far it seems Haliburton (a Bush/Chenney pet company ) was rejected from the privatization of Petrom (which is probably the most important company in Romania outside the financial area and probably competing with Sidex in strategic importance). The major privatizations so far are in the hands of French ( cement, Dacia, BRD), Russians(through Lukoil, Alro), Germans(rubber/tire plant, mechanical plants, detergents), Austrians(sugar, cement), Italians(textiles, now Tractorul Brasov), Greeks(RomTelecom), Anglo-Indians(Sidex), Hungarians(everywhere in Transylvania through small and spreaded investments, but also some notorious scandals in the ago-business) etc. and while Americans are indirectly present through OTE/ROMTELECOM or the south koreans and a few direct investments(Colgate, that Resita failure, now, though very unclear who and how, - ARO) I doubt they will try to maintain only political control while all the rest take a far more consistant piece of the pie.

[88mm]

I didn't want to start a new topic about MiG 21 "the Plow" so I'm writting here. What do you think is the cause of so many Lancer crusing : poor mantainance from the Air Force or the modernizantion pacage, mainly the new avionics implemented, has errors, a conflict between the new techonology and the plane's implicit commands?

[Victor]

QUOTE

I didn't want to start a new topic about MiG 21 \"the Plow\" so I'm writting here. What do you think is the cause of so many Lancer crusing : poor mantainance from the Air Force or the modernizantion  pacage, mainly the new avionics implemented, has errors, a conflict between the new techonology and the plane's implicit commands?

What makes you say that there are "so many" crashes in the first place? As I showed in another thread, F-16s fall more often,yet nobody regards them as "plows".

[dragos]

I'm not documented in this matter, but how is the fatality ratio, compared with Americans?

[dragos]

Not only that we can't afford to crash planes, but the last killed pilot was one of the most experienced, IIRC.

[C-2]

The Romanian AF is loosing 21's because they're the only fighters we got! If we'd have F-16's the accidents would be with F-16...
The pilots are flying few hours and the budget is low.
Maybee someone can tell us the accident rate in other airforces.

[Victor]

Look here, at the middle of the page:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/viewtopic.ph...er=asc&start=45

[88mm]

You can not compare the number of active US F-16 with our numbers of MiG's. But let my tell you why I put this question. I came over an articol on the net from "The Hindu" : The Indian Air Force is trying to upgrade it's MiG 25. They to choose an Israeli company for it - less money then getting the upgrade package from the russians. The russian officials gave Romania as an exaple after the indians wanted to go along with the israelits - the inexplicabale loss of so many Lancers imidiatly after the firsts upgrades. They also said that a romanian delegation visited the M&G bureau to talk about this.

[Victor]

QUOTE

You can not compare the number of active US F-16 with our numbers of MiG's. But let my tell you why I put this question. I came over an articol on the net from \"The Hindu\" : The Indian Air Force is trying to upgrade it's MiG 25. They to choose an Israeli company for it - less money then getting the upgrade package from the russians. The russian officials gave Romania as an exaple after the indians wanted to go along with the israelits - the inexplicabale loss of so many Lancers imidiatly after the firsts upgrades. They also said that a romanian delegation visited the M&G bureau to talk about this.

I am referring more to the Dutch AF, than to the USAF. THey lost quitea percentage of their F-16s.

I would not givetoo much consideration to the Indian newspaper and their Russian "source". First, IIRC, they give a number of Lancers lost, double than in reality and second, the Russians are very objective and not at all interested in seizing the contract for themselves. :roll:

[C-2]

Today ,I saw on tv news about a crach of a Turkish fighter,I belive it was a F 16.Unfortunatly tha pilot lost his life.
Like you see it happens also in a country with a huge military budget and very new equipment.

[C-2]

I red in yesterday newspaper,that some "iregularities" were found in some military airfields;tones of aviation fuel were stolen and pilots "got"flying hours that they never flew....

[Iamandi]

Anyone knows how manny planes had lost Romania in accidents from ww2 to present? And how manny lifes are loosed in this accidents?

"A total of 157 Indian Air Force pilots have been killed in MiG crashes since 1971-72 to 2004-05 (up to 24th November 2004). A total of 40 civilians have been killed in these crashes. The regularized financial loss in respect of these MiG aircraft crashes is Rs17,71,70,60,026/-.

A continuous and multi-faceted effort is always being undertaken in the Indian Air Force to enhance and upgrade flight safety. Measures to enhance the quality of training to improve the skill levels, ability to exercise sound judgment and situational awareness of pilots are being pursued.

Constant interaction with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and Original Equipment Manufactures (OEMs) of concerned countries are also pursued to overcome the technical defects of aircraft. Besides, anti-bird measures are also undertaken.

This information was given by the Defence Minister Shri Pranab Mukherjee in a written reply to Shri Datta Meghe in Rajya Sabha today. "

India Press Information Bureau, at 1 December 2004

Iama