Aerial victories

[Ahmed]

I have a question: where can I find a listing of the number of downed aircraft by romanian aces? I don't mean the number of victories, wich is something different, meant to imflate the score.
For example: Cantacuzino's 50 rating, howmany actual planes does that account for?

[Victor]

Cantacuzinohad 58 confirmed victories and 45 kills.

Look on my ARR website at the ace list here:
http://www.arr.go.ro/aces.htm

I think it is what you are looking for

[Dénes]

In my new book on Rumanian Fighter Aces, released yesterday (see thread below), I included a list of 126 ARR pilots who meet the 5-victory (attention, not 5-aircraft!) standard necessary for the 'ace' status.

In that list, you will find both the no. of destroyed airplanes (in air and on ground, confirmed and probable, in separate columns) and the no. of ARR victories for each of those 'ace' pilots.

An interesting - and highly relevant - detail is that out of these 126 'ace' fighter pilots, 42 (thus 1/3rd!) were killed in line of duty. A staggering statistics!

Dénes

[Ahmed]

Thank a lot Victor, that is what I needed.
Denes- do you mean to tell me there were 126(!!) romanian fighter aces in WW2?!
By the way, if we're into statistics; can we make a comparison between how well the Luftwaffe faired in the defense of the Reich compared to the RRAF?

[Victor]

QUOTE

Thank a lot Victor, that is what I needed. Denes- do you mean to tell me there were 126(!!) romanian fighter aces in WW2?!

These are victory aces. For example if one pilotshot down one B-24 and one P-38 he would become an ace with 5 vitories. A pilotthat shot down 4 Yak-9s would not. :wink:

[Dénes]

QUOTE

Ahmed wrote:   Thank a lot Victor, that is what I needed.   Denes- do you mean to tell me there were 126(!!) romanian fighter aces in WW2?!   These are victory aces. For example if one pilotshot down one B-24 and one P-38 he would become an ace with 5 vitories. A pilotthat shot down 4 Yak-9s would not.

Victor is right. There are 126 'aces' if we consider their ARR-style victories. Indeed, a B-24 and a P-38 'kill' (even if they are only probable) would be enough for an ARR pilot to be considered an 'ace'. However, if someone would had downed 4 Mustangs in air combat, for example - a feat no Rumanian, or small Axis pilot ever achieved - that particular flyer would still not be considered an 'ace'.

Here is how I mentioned this controversial issue in my book:
When the new system was introduced in February 1944, the individual scores were adjusted retroactively. This unique scoring system could often lead to confusion and peculiarities. Thus, a pilot who shot down, for example, a B-17 Flying Fortress and a P-38 Lightning — like Cpt. av. Petre Constantinescu of Grupul 6 vânătoare — became an instant, five-victory ‘ace’. However, the pilot who destroyed ‘only’ four single-engined fighters in air combat — like Lt. av. Ştefan Alexandrescu of Grupul 8 vânătoare — still cannot be considered an ‘ace’.

There were worse cases - if we can call it as such - when a pilot had only a single confirmed air victory and four ground victories, he still became an 'ace'. This is the case of Cpt. av. Alexandru Manoliu, of Gr. 7 van. Moreover, victories shared with the unit were also considered a 'full' victory for every participant, thus one twin-engine bomber downed by a four-ship 'patrula' generated a total of 8 ARR victories!

On the other hand, based on Western style criterion, there are 'only' 59 'real' aces, namely pilots who have 5 or more confirmed enemy airplanes downed in air combat. This is comparable to the other small Axis air forces - if we consider the total number of fighter pilots participant in combat operations (except for Finland, which had at least 87 5-kill aces).

Dénes

P.S. Thank you for promoting me to the amazing rank of 'fruntas' (this happens for the second time in my life). I am wondering what should I do to eventually become a 'maresal'? 8)

[daveh]

Why was this system of scoring other than by aircraft shot down introduced?. Was it because a 4 engined bomber regarded as a harder target than a single engined fighter? or because bombers were regarded as more worth while target as they destroyed ground targets?

[Victor]

QUOTE

Thank you for promoting me to the amazing rank of 'fruntas' (this happens for the second time in my life). I am wondering what should I do to eventually become a 'maresal'?

Post, post, post!
But you can get only to the rank of general de armata

Dave,
The system was introduced most likely in order to boost the morale of the fighter pilots.

[Dénes]

Victor wrote:

QUOTE

Post, post, post!

Wasn't, by any chance, Uncle Vladimir Ilyich your inspiration?
Or, perhaps, Comrade Stahanov?

QUOTE

But you can get only to the rank of general de armata

That's not fair! 8)
Wasn't it Rommel, who said that every foot soldier potentially carries the marshall's baton in his rucksac?
Or, both Marshall's titles, awarded in W.W. 2, are already taken?

Dénes

[Bernard Miclescu]

QUOTE

Wasn't it Rommel, who said that every foot soldier potentially carries the marshall's baton in his rucksac?

Wasn't it Napoleon?????? I know it exist a book called "In ranita batonul de maresal".

Regards,
BM

[Csaba Becze]

Bernard, you have right, it was Napoleon.