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War in the middle east, why oh why?

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Imperialist	Posted: August 12, 2006 06:27 am
General de armata Group: Members Posts: 2399 Member No.: 499 Joined: February 09, 2005	30 Tanks Wiped Out in Lebanon At least 30 tanks have been totally destroyed or seriously damaged in bomb and anti-tank rocket attacks involving state-of-the-art Russian anti-tank rockets. About one-half of the military personnel killed in southern Lebanon were inside tanks. http://israelnn.com/news.php3?id=109793 -------------------- I

C-2	Posted: August 12, 2006 12:45 pm
General Medic Group: Hosts Posts: 2453 Member No.: 19 Joined: June 23, 2003	That proves that the IDf inteligence was sleeping. Same thing happened in 1973 when the RPG 7 was in Egiptian hands and the knew nothing about it. Mistakes are made so people will learn from them....

New Connaught Ranger

Posted: August 12, 2006 08:46 pm

Colonel

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QUOTE (C-2 @ August 12, 2006 12:45 pm)

That proves that the IDf inteligence was sleeping.
Same thing happened in 1973 when the RPG 7 was in Egiptian hands and the knew nothing about it.
Mistakes are made so people will learn from them....

Hallo C - 2,

Were not the Israeli Tankers caught napping with the "rocket in a suitcase" by the Egyptians the "SAGGER-3" i think it was called, wire guided to its target by the operator. when the 1956 Campaign started, Israeli inteligence didnt cotton on to why so many soldiers were carry suitcases as they crossed the Nile, seems more than a fresh change of clothing was in there

Iran makes a copy of the Russian AT-3 9M14M (Sagger or Ra’ad) anti-tank guided missile. An improved version of RAAD missile, RAAD-T missile, incorporates a tandem warhead armament system and due to new airframe, its maneuverability increased considerably. Irrespective of the year and place of production, all versions of RAAD missiles can be upgraded to the new version. The RAAD-T weapon system is a portable anti-tank guided missile, which is used to attack any armored fighting vehicle including those with Explosive Reactive Armor (ERA). In field operations, only by one ground guidance equipment, up to four missiles on their launchers can be shot, each in every 30 seconds. The system Safety and Arming Device (SAD) provides a high level of safety during the transportation and handling besides a reliable arming in operation. It is transported in new packing and tested with new equipment. By impacting the target, even at high angles of attack, explosion of the front charge, will remove the Explosive Reactive Armor (ERA) and after a delay time, the main charge will be exploded and the tank destroyed.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/at-3.htm

picture by Wikipidea online.

Still you are supposed to learn from your mistakes

Kevin in Deva

This post has been edited by New Connaught Ranger on August 12, 2006 08:57 pm

Imperialist	Posted: August 12, 2006 09:52 pm
General de armata Group: Members Posts: 2399 Member No.: 499 Joined: February 09, 2005	Hezbollah shot down an Israeli military helicopter in southern Lebanon on Saturday, and Israeli security officials said casualties were reported. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060812/ap_on_...licopter_downed -------------------- I

Imperialist	Posted: August 13, 2006 09:06 am
General de armata Group: Members Posts: 2399 Member No.: 499 Joined: February 09, 2005	24 troops killed in day of battles Day 32 of fighting in Lebanon claims heavy toll: Nineteen soldiers killed in ground operations, another 85 wounded; 12 sustain serious injuries. Five soldiers who are missing are assumed to be dead after Hizbullah shoots down IDF helicopter using antitank missile http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3290185,00.html EDIT - and Olmert now says he will negotiate with Hezbollah over the 2 soldiers captured! This post has been edited by Imperialist on August 13, 2006 09:16 am -------------------- I

AlexC

Posted: August 13, 2006 11:23 am

Fruntas

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Tactics having kept Israeli army at bay

QUOTE

By Nicholas Blanford, Daniel McGrory, Stephen Farrell (The Times)
Updated: 2006-08-10 09:05

FOR four weeks Hezbollah's fighters have defied the might of the Israeli military.
A guerrilla force that was supposed to be crushed in days has prevented Israeli troops capturing more than a handful of villages in southern Lebanon, killed more than 100 Israeli soldiers and civilians and is still raining missiles on northern Israel. In the eyes of Arabs and Muslims Hezbollah has already "won" the month-long war simply because it has not been defeated by the Middle East's most powerful army.

Hezbollah has made good use of the six years since Israel withdrew its troops from southern Lebanon. With help from Syria and Iran it has amassed large arsenals, laid traps, built an intricate system of bunkers and tunnels, studied Israeli military tactics and developed a well-trained force of highly motivated fighters.

Israeli soldiers have been shaken by the fighters' skill and commitment, describing them as an army, not a rabble. "Even I have been surprised at the tenacity of these groups fighting in the villages," Timur Goksel, who served with UN peacekeepers in southern Lebanon from 1979 to 2003, said. "They have fought far beyond my expectations and they haven't even committed all their fully experienced troops yet."

Here are the keys to Hezbollah's success:

ANTI-TANK MISSILES

Small teams of trained fighters have used advanced missiles to knock out the formidable Merkava tank, and older versions to punch through the walls of houses sheltering Israeli soldiers.

Most are Saggers, an outdated Soviet wire-guided missile first used in the 1960s. In the late 1990s Hezbollah began firing more accurate wire-guided TOW anti-tank missiles. In this war, Hezbollah has for the first time used the Russian Metis-M, which has a range of a mile and can be fitted with an anti-armour warhead or a fuel-air explosive warhead to use against troops or bunkers. Hezbollah may also be using the laser-guided Kornet-E anti-tank missile, which has a range of about 3.5 miles.

Individual Hezbollah fighters carry the shoulder-fired RPG29, a more advanced version of the RPG7 beloved of guerrilla groups since the 1960s. It has a dual-purpose warhead. "The first punches through the armour and the second is aimed at the personnel," Elias Hanna, a retired Lebanese general, said.

Hezbollah's ability to knock out Merkava tanks has frustrated the traditional Israeli military doctrine of rapid armoured thrusts deep into enemy territory.

LOCAL KNOWLEDGE

Hezbollah is thought to have no more than 1,000 elite frontline fighters, with perhaps 3,000 in reserve. They will be drawn from the villages where they are fighting, using their intimate knowledge of the local terrain. They communicate by walkie-talkie, constantly changing the frequency and using a code that draws on their personal knowledge of each other and the surrounding area. Some reportedly used souped-up off-road motorbikes to launch hit-and-run attacks then escape along obscure tracks. Hezbollah also has drones to spy on Israeli movements.

BUNKERS

From 2000, Hezbollah developed a secret military infrastructure in southern Lebanon, consisting of tunnels, expanded natural caves and underground bunkers where weapons were stored and fighters could live. Much of this construction work was carried out at night in remote stretches of the border.

Israeli troops have talked of finding bunkers housing command-and-control centres and advanced eavesdropping and surveillance equipment and monitoring cameras. The Israelis speak of battle-hardened Hezbollah fighters constantly popping up from unknown hiding places, firing, and then vanishing again.

MOTIVATION

Israeli officers regard Hezbollah fighters, many trained in Iran, as highly motivated but not careless of their lives in the manner of Palestinian militants often intent on glory through death. Mr Goksel said: "Hezbollah is not afraid of the Israelis. After 18 years fighting Israeli troops, they see them as vulnerable human beings who make mistakes and are afraid like anyone else."

SNIPERS

Hezbollah marksmen equipped with high-powered rifles lie undercover for days at a time, picking off Israeli soldiers when the opportunity arises. Their marksmanship is impressive. In July 2004 a Hezbollah sniper shot dead two Israeli soldiers from a range of 500 yards.

ROCKETS

Israeli commanders claim to have destroyed many of Hezbollah¡¯s long-range rocket launchers, including the 600mm Zelzal that can reach Tel Aviv. But the standard 122mm Katyushas can be fired more easily by mobile teams without the need for launchers visible to spotter drones or surveillance planes. These rockets are generally fired from multibarrelled launchers on the back of flat-bed trucks, but they can also be fired singly, even from a simple mounting of crossed sticks that is all but invisible to Israeli drones when hidden inside an olive grove. Last week Israeli commandos staged a pre-dawn raid on an apartment block in Tyre housing Hezbollah militants who had been firing long-range rockets into Israel. Two Hezbollah militants were killed, but rockets were being fired from the same location hours later.

ROADSIDE BOMBS

These killed more Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon in the 1990s than any other weapon, and the technology is now much more sophisticated. Early versions consisted of home-made claymore-style explosive charges that spray hundreds of ball bearings, and were detonated by a command wire or remote radio control.

Hezbollah bombs today include shaped-charge warheads that concentrate the blast in a single direction to punch through the walls of armoured vehicles. They are detonated by infra-red beam.

Military observers believe that Hezbollah long ago planted huge mines under all the roads crossing the border. Israeli tanks have therefore avoided the border roads.

WEAPONS DISPERSAL

Instead of stockpiling its munitions in a handful of arsenals, Hezbollah dispersed them in private homes, garages, basements, bunkers and caves, giving ready access to small Hezbollah units. The group is also thought to have night-vision goggles and a stash of Israeli military fatigues for ambushes.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2306510_1,00.html

Suparatu	Posted: August 14, 2006 06:32 am
Caporal Group: Banned Posts: 145 Member No.: 721 Joined: November 08, 2005	hmmm...those hezbollah dudes are quite hardcore. kinda makes you wonder about all the propaganda one has been hearing about the israeli army being "one of the best in the world"..

C-2	Posted: August 14, 2006 07:48 am
General Medic Group: Hosts Posts: 2453 Member No.: 19 Joined: June 23, 2003	The Hiz ,are not wearing any uniforms. Unless you kill all civilians in the area ,it's hard to find them. Thei fire and hide in houses.The terrain in horible and the international pressure too....

AlexC

Posted: August 14, 2006 09:59 am

Fruntas

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Bush 'viewed war in Lebanon as a curtain-raiser for attack on Iran'

QUOTE

By Andrew Buncombe in Washington
Published: 14 August 2006

The Bush administration was informed in advance and gave the "green light" to Israel's military strikes against Hizbollah with plans drawn up months before two Israeli soldiers were seized it has been claimed.

The US reportedly considered Israel's actions as a necessary prerequisite for a possible strike against Iran. A report by a leading investigative reporter says that earlier this summer Israeli officials visited Washington to brief the government on its plan to respond to any Hizbollah provocation and to "find out how much the US would bear".

The officials apparently started their inquiries with Vice-President Dick Cheney, knowing that if they secured his support, obtaining the backing of President Bush and Condoleezza Rice would be easier.

The report by Seymour Hersh quotes an unidentified US government consultant with close ties to the Israelis who says: "The Israelis told us it would be a cheap war with many benefits. Why oppose it? We'll be able to hunt down and bomb missiles, tunnels, and bunkers from the air. It would be a demo for Iran."

A former intelligence officer, also quoted, says: "We told Israel,'Look, if you guys have to go, we're behind you all the way. But we think it should be sooner rather than later. The longer you wait, the less time we have to evaluate and plan for Iran before Bush gets out of office'."

Both Israeli and US officials say that the Israeli military operation against Hizbollah was triggered by the seizing of two Israeli soldiers, apparently to be bargained with for a possible prisoner swap. But Hersh's report, published in today's issue of The New Yorker, adds to evidence that Israel had been anticipating a Hizbollah provocation for some time and planning its response a response that was widely condemned for being disproportionate.

Last month the San Francisco Chronicle reported that "Israel's military response by air, land and sea to what it considered a provocation last week by Hizbollah militants was unfolding according to a plan finalised more than a year ago". The report said that a senior Israeli army officer had been briefing diplomats, journalists and think-tanks for more than a year about the plan and it quoted Gerald Steinberg, professor of political science at [Israel's] Bar-Ilan University, who said: "Of all of Israel's wars since 1948, this was the one for which Israel was most prepared." Last week the New Statesman magazine reported that Britain had also been informed in advance of the military preparations and that the Prime Minister had chosen not to try to stop them "because he did not want to".

This latest report is the first to tie the Israeli operation to a broader framework that includes a possible US strike against Iran.

Unidentified officials said a strike could "ease Israel's security concerns and also serve as a prelude to a potential American pre-emptive attack". Shabtai Shavit, a national security adviser to the Knesset, said: "We do what we think is best for us, and if it happens to meet America's requirements, that's just part of a relationship between two friends. Hizbollah is armed to the teeth and trained in the most advanced technology of guerrilla warfare. It was just a matter of time."

An anonymous Middle East expert claimed that while the State Department supported the plan because it believed it would help the Lebanese government assert control over the south, the White House was focussed on stripping Hizbollah of its missiles.

The expert added: "If there was to be a military option against Iran's nuclear facilities, it had to get rid of the weapons that Hizbollah could use in a potential retaliation at Israel. Bush was going after Iran, as part of the 'axis of evil', and its nuclear sites, and he was interested in going after Hizbollah as part of his interest in democratisation."

Last night the White House denied the allegations contained in Hersh's piece with a brief statement from the President describing it as "patently untrue". Mr Bush's national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, added: " The suggestion that the US and Israel planned and co-ordinated an attack on Hizbollah and did so as a prelude to an attack on Iran is just flat wrong."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americ...icle1219021.ece

120mm

Posted: August 14, 2006 11:19 am

Caporal

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QUOTE (Imperialist @ August 12, 2006 06:27 am)

30 Tanks Wiped Out in Lebanon

At least 30 tanks have been totally destroyed or seriously damaged in bomb and anti-tank rocket attacks involving state-of-the-art Russian anti-tank rockets.

About one-half of the military personnel killed in southern Lebanon were inside tanks.

http://israelnn.com/news.php3?id=109793

I wouldn't even remotely consider that story as being from a valid source. Look at the title and read the text. They do not match. "Wiped Out" versus "Destroyed or Damaged" are not the same thing.

I want the "journalist" writing it to define what a "tank" is, and what "destroyed" means. Are they considering "Achzarits" to be tanks?

120mm

Posted: August 14, 2006 11:27 am

Caporal

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QUOTE (AlexC @ August 14, 2006 09:59 am)

Bush 'viewed war in Lebanon as a curtain-raiser for attack on Iran'

QUOTE

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americ...icle1219021.ece

I would hardly consider Andrew Buncombe and "Why War?" a credible source. If he reported that the sky is blue, I'd go out and check, just to make sure.

120mm

Posted: August 14, 2006 11:31 am

Caporal

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QUOTE (Florin @ August 07, 2006 05:30 pm)

QUOTE (sid guttridge @ August 07, 2006 06:38 am)

Hi alexC,

We don't know that.

However, we do know that NOT bombing Syria and Iran definitely hasn't solved anything in the past.

Furthermore, if Syria and Iran get the impression they cannot ever be bombed (as some "anti-war" types in the West would have it) then we can be absolutely certain nothing will ever be solved until the Iranian and Syrian regimes get their own way.

Given the nature of these regimes, do we want that?

Cheers,

Sid.

p.S. This is not an advocacy of bombing Syria and Iran. It is an advocacy of not taking this particular option off the table in order to keep pressure on them.

In the last 3 years the U.S. and allies could not curb the insurgency originating in Iraq from the 40% of population represented by the Sunni. 3 years after invasion, and America seems to lose the grasp of the ground.
Bomb Iran, and you'll have to fight with the Shia, while Iranian troops and weaponry will pour into Iraq. Bomb Syria, and you'll see the Syrians shoulder-to-shoulder with the other guys from the southern Liban, who cannot be defeated while fighting alone.
You have a point in not giving the impression that those regimes will not be punished whatever they do, but I don't think this is the right moment. Unless you want to be the Sith in Star Wars - Episode I: "Wipe them out... All of them!"
(...And in Star Wars - Episode I, it did not work as the Sith wanted.)

And how is that different from what's happening, now?

Actually, the Syrians and Iranians have been involved in the so-called "insurgency" from the beginning. The alleged Iraqi "insurgents" are at the very least being whipped up and paid by Iran and some are equipped by Syria.

Suparatu	Posted: August 14, 2006 11:53 am
Caporal Group: Banned Posts: 145 Member No.: 721 Joined: November 08, 2005	so far two Hezbollah militants have been killed by the IDF AFTER the armistice has taken effect...weird tactics by the israel army...no armistice is going to last like this...

Florin	Posted: August 14, 2006 01:03 pm
General de corp de armata Group: Members Posts: 1879 Member No.: 17 Joined: June 22, 2003	The cease fire agreement - comments from newspapers: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4790219.stm

Florin	Posted: August 14, 2006 02:18 pm
General de corp de armata Group: Members Posts: 1879 Member No.: 17 Joined: June 22, 2003	Nothing express situation so well (as it is on August 14) as 4 words - a title in Al-Jazeera headlines: Both sides claim victory. This post has been edited by Florin on August 14, 2006 02:18 pm

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