War in the middle east, why oh why?

Considering that Hezbollah didn't even exist before the 80's invasion of Lebanon when the south Lebanese shias actually WELCOMED the Israeli troops but the occupation turned them against Israel and formed Hezbollah with Iranian help to drive out the invaders and that in the 18 years of occupation Hezbollah only became stronger and stronger I don't know what the Israelis hoped to achieve in this war only to make Hez even stronger. There is no military solution.

Hi C-2,

Where does this anti-Arab diatribe come from?

One can't generalise so sweepingly about entire peoples. Combat performance is a cultural thing and varies over time. (Look at the Battles of Rossbach and Jena if you want to see how far the pendulum can swing between two peoples in just half a century). Stick the Arab Arab and Israeli in a trench with a bayonet each and it is anybody's money who is going to come out alive. Israelis aren't inherently braver, tougher or more warlike than Arabs, but their wider culture is more educated and developed and they are able to use advanced weaponry more effectively as a force magnifier to make up for their more limited numbers.

In detail you are also inaccurate. The Israelis have had overall qualitative superiority in equipment, especially in the air, since the early 1950s, largely by buying or developing Western or their own weapons systems of a more advanced technological standard than the Arab Warsaw Pact equipment.

Israeli Shermans had little role in 1973 and besides were not of WWII standard, having been up-gunned in the meantime. UZIs were never decisive in any conflict. American help did not just arrive during and after the 1973 war. Much US equipment was already in service. Where do you think all the Skyhawks came from?

Where on earth do you get the idea from that Israel is some sort of bulwark against an Arab/Muslim invasion of Europe? It is, in fact, the last Western-founded colony. Its very existence has been a provocation to several hundred million Muslims for over half a century. What is more, the West's support for or toleration of Israel has turned much of the Muslim world away from secular Western values and towards Islamic fundamentalism. If the West does come under collective attack from the Muslim world it will be less despite Israel's defence and more because of Israel's existence.

Cheers,

Sid.

Ah Sid, but it was never the discussion over Israel (as a state) genesis. It was about this very specific war.Of course, one can argue that this has something to do with, but we are not looking for the roots of this bloody conflict.It is clear that none of the parts will ever give up,and that makes me wonder how much was invested in a REAL peace treaty. While I agree that Israel is not the show stopper for "Muslim/Arab expansion of Europe", I can say for sure they are the ones actually dealing with their guerillas. For the moment this is an isolated conflict, but unlike you I really doubt that all Israel neighbors , together can overrun this country.Given the fact that Israel stated not only once that they will use ANY means (that would include atomic weapons) to defend their country, well ... one can understand the reluctance of these countries in a full scale conflict with Israel. They have to actually wait for Israel to invade (airstrikes not counted because they can't prove it unless caught) and hope for the whole Muslim world to raise for fight. Or, knowing the history, I am sure that Arabs are more inclined to accept the easy money instead of actually do the fighting.

'The Best Guerrilla Force in the World'

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...l?nav=rss_world

The grand children will most likely be atheists, or christians just "on paper", than muslims.

Yes and in that context US support for Turkish entry in the EU is very "interesting".

Pope Benedict:
"The roots that have formed Europe, that have permitted the formation of this continent, are those of Christianity. Turkey has always represented another continent, in permanent contrast with Europe. There were the [old Ottoman Empire] wars against the Byzantine Empire, the fall of Constantinople, the Balkan wars, and the threat against Vienna and Austria. It would be an error to equate the two continents...Turkey is founded upon Islam...Thus the entry of Turkey into the EU would be anti-historical."

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kralis/050420

The United States supports Turkey’s EU candidacy

http://useu.usmission.gov/Dossiers/Turkey/default.asp

This post has been edited by Victor on August 23, 2006 06:28 am

Gophers by TKO: Lessons from Lebanon

http://www.exile.ru/2006-August-11/gophers_by_tko.html

i liked the august cover of the Economist Issue. it said , quite simply, the truth -
Nasrallah wins the war!

After reading the the bad article written by GARY BRECHER and posted by Alex C,

Maybe this will provide a breath of fresh air:

Prostitution Beats War

26 Iulie 2006 | de Gabi Golea JURNALUL NATIONAL.

One of the strangest cases solved by the Romanian secret services in the past 15 years was part of the operation for the evacuation of the Romanian citizens in Lebanon. It is hilarious, but we dare to say it is quite…Romanian. It involves some of our girls who headed East in order to earn some money.

After the tremendous effort of the authorities, which involved an unprecedented cooperation between embassies, ministries, internal and external secret services, military and civilian structures, some odd incidents appeared. Sources inside the Romanian secret services reported us a hilarious, yet interesting story. They did it for us to be able to see the kind of people confront with when they get involved in the saving of human lives.

SERIOUS OPERATION. The Romanian authorities had to help for evacuation of hundreds of Romanians from Lebanon. This country has become a real polygon due to the confrontations between Israel and Hezbollah. According to the data received from the Romanian External Affairs Ministry, 729 people have been evacuated between the 17th and the 20th of July with the help of three convoys organized in Bucharest.

HUNDREDS OF EVACUATED PEOPLE. The actions have continued after the three convoys as well, so, between the 20th and the 25th of July, 57 more people have been evacuated by sea with the help of several operations organized by the EU. These people arrived or will arrive in Romania under safety conditions and the present data from the Romanian authorities indicate a total of 786 evacuated people. 408 people have managed to leave Lebanon on their own, through Syria. Some of them have been brought into the country with the planes that transported the refugees on the 17th, 18th and 20th of July, the Ministry of External Affairs states.

SATELITE MONITORING. The hilarious part comes after the evacuation operations. One of the convoys that left Beirut with Romanian citizens had more than 120 people aboard. The convoy was monitored through satellite, had a detection signal, in order for it not to be bombarded. The Lebanese part as well as the Israeli one has been announced about all the exact dates: the hour and place of departure, the itinerary, the exact number of people, the type of the transport vehicles, the destination.

The famous "girls from Lebanon" have been in some of these buses. Of course, these were Romanian buses. They were nightclub dancers, some of them were prostitutes, but they all needed to run away from the war. Since no one cared about any lap dances due to the Israeli missiles and bombs, they didn’t earn too much either. So, the girls have also taken advantage from the Romanian operation and got aboard the buses going to Romania.

THE SYRIAN OPPORTUNITY. The indicated sources have mentioned that there has been an incident after approximately half of the itinerary had been covered. Once the convoy had reached the Syrian Alep harbor, they had to take a three-hour break until the embarkation to Romania.

"The girls in Lebanon" have found an opportunity to avoid coming empty handed to Bucharest. They have urgently left the place where the refugees were and quickly found a solution for two or three "rounds".

After the three hours expired, our Romanians have announced the authorities that they wouldn’t come to Romania, that they were grateful for the help, but they would remain in Alep.

They had found a good market in Syria and the opportunity of continuing with the job. Of course they got some money, because nothing’s for free. Far away from the Israeli bursting shell, the Romanian "hotties" contributed to the peace in the region the way they could.

The secret services officers, the representatives of the External Affairs and the ones of the Defense Ministry left the girls in Syria and continued the operation for the repatriation of the Romanians in Lebanon.

Translated by SORIN BALAN.

END OF ARTICLE:

Nice to see somebody other than the USA is making a little money out in the East

Kevin in Deva

[edited by moderator]

Funny. I don't quite understand what's the problem of this woman (article author) with the fact that the girls stayed in Siria "after unprecedenting [...] rescue mission from Lebanon". Heck, the objective was achieved, out of Lebanon,isn't it? If they want to stay in Syria, well, then stay,I completely agree with the authorities reaction. I don't think there's a lack of prostitutes in Romania because these left there

Several off-topic posts were deleted and a post was edited. Please stick to the topic and avoid getting personal about it.

why do you think the gary brecher article was bad? i thought it was quite good. or do you believe the "good guys always win" propaganda?

Hezbollah was founded in the mid-'70s. As a purely offensive organization, designed to attack Israel. The media myth of Hezbollah being formed in response to Israeli actions is an indication of their ability to employ media spin as their best and most effective weapon.

No, not really Ehud Barak: Israel's Presence in Lebanon Produced Hezbollah

This post has been edited by AlexC on August 22, 2006 05:08 pm

Hi Sid,
About the question "why do I hate so much the arabs,I'll give you an answer.But I expect you to give also an answer to "why do you hate so much teh Israelies?

I really don't hate Arabs.
I hate fundamentalism extremism and people fro comits acts of terror.I hate people who put civilians life at risc.I hate people blowing themself up.I hate people who are taking hostages and hijaking palnes.
Sounds familiarisn';t it?
I have as much friend arabs as Israelies.
True that most arabs i know are cristians...
I had teh chance living for a period between israelies and arabs as well.
Did YOU also had this oportunity?
I may not have a degree in the history of the conflicts in the middle east,but I know much about it. More then most of so called experts.

When imperialist is posting stupid posts,I cand understand that. He's a person who most likely never leaves home often.
I did not expect that from you.

About the Shermans in the IDF.
They did had a major role in 73.
They were the only tank rezerve that stopped the Iraky column,and were ww2 tanks exept of the more powerful gun,and no night vission.If you ever heard about Yossi Peled....

The Uzi did was one of the best at his time.Jerusalem was taken with the uzi in 67. So Entebe in 76.
Ever fired one?
And yes I belive that Israel stands between us,the European and cristian culture and the islamic fundamentalism.Something similar of Leonidas at Thermophile.
Cheers!

You addressed to me the quote above. For the moment I did not want to answer, mostly because I respect and admire your interest in Romanian history in general, and in the history of Romanian aviation in particular.

Now you wrote to Sid:

First of all, I do not hate the Israelis.
But I do not like a policy of forced colonization and illegal settlement just because that area is designated "the promised land" for "the chosen people" in The Old Testament. You cannot force your way into the future based on a book written 2500 years ago. Yes, Sid is right, 70...60 years ago the Muslim Arabs where more moderate. The first broadcast of BBC in a foreign language was in Arabic (late 1920's or early 1930's), because the British felt that the Arab middle class was open to a part of the European values. Later, the foreign policy of Israel, combined with permanent American troops in half of dozen Arab states after 1991, and more recently with the invasion of Iraq, fed the blind bigotry and sick hate of many Muslims.
I dislike even more to see that people with no clues about a far away country gather in the Oval Office and decide to bomb, invade and destroy that country thousands miles away with the same easiness you would eat an yogurt.

OK. I am Christian, even though I am not entering into a church too often. Rather quite rare...
And yes, I knew many Muslims. As a fact, I worked for Shell in petroleum industry, as engineer, in Turkish Kurdistan. In New York I had Muslim colleagues in some previous jobs, and in the present one, and my supervisor is Muslim. He doesn't make noise about that, because he is too busy with everyday job problems. As a general rule, Muslims in the United States avoid politic comments, even in private occassions. I guess they see a Federal agent under every bush, and under every boulder.
You cannot label whole groups of people. People are good or bad, honest or jerks, correct or liars, but this have nothing to do with a whole group or with a religous group. There are evil people in any religious group, and good ones, in the same religious group.
I agree, a future with women being discriminated and forced to wear scarfs, face covers and down to earth dresses is very frightening. Adding to this, all men having beards and head covers would make the picture even more frightening. But I do not think the Earth will be "invaded" by the Muslim style society. Not because I hope so, but I do not think it will happen.
A more real danger: the more Muslim states will obtain nuclear know-how, the bigger the chances for some rogue groups to obtain a nuke for themselves, and to try to do harm then. Even if that will not be backed by a government, the danger will be the same.

This post has been edited by Florin on August 23, 2006 12:28 pm