90% of Romanian Jews killed during WW2?, according to some sources

1. I admitted that Johnson's figure is incorrect earlier on this thread.

2. I admit there are no western authors (plural) who claim that, there is only Johnson (singular). When I initially said "western authors led me to believe" it was on another thread and I referred to the numbers offered by Johnson regarding exterminated jews in the context of the general jewish population in Romania (numbers offered by the other author). I meant that these 2 numbers put side by side lead to that conlusion. I didnt know you were so picky and I should have said only "author", for in fact only Johnson's statement has that implication, the other author providing only the demography. So I admit my mistake in using the plural there. My head bows and I throw ash on it.

As for your request to change my view on the implications of Johnson's statement, I will not do that because I have good arguments for having that view. Like I said, I will not accept to be threatened into changing my point of view when I have good arguments for it. If I do mistakes I will admit them.

So the ball is now in your court. Will you withdraw your "pigheaded stupidity" and demand for banning?

take care

Holy Crap! Can you two knock it off? There is no reason to be going back and forth. Apparently neither one of you is going to admit to being wrong if you were (not saying you aren't or you are). Do agree that if you post something make sure you have more than one author to research the information on. This way there is more than one source to fall back on. This is getting to be a battle of words between two people.

Maybe it wasn't 90% but we all know that Romania did participate in the execution/transportaion of Jews for the Nazi regime. Mayabe not to the extent of other countries but they did!

If you are going to discuss such a topic be prepared for anything and everything from both sides of the story.

Hello RHaught.

Thank you for letting us know how you feel about this. Hopefully this thing is drawing to a close. I agree with you about knocking this off. I held the same opinion 21 days ago: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...indpost&p=56167 Holly molly, 21 days!

take care

Hi RHaught,

This is a rather more substantive issue than "a battle of words between two people." There are issues of standards of evidence on what purports to be a historical website. We cannot just invent things or, having invented them, refuse to withdraw them when unable to substantiate them, especially on matters as sensitive as this.

We all recognise that Romanians had a hand in the deaths of many of their Jews. However, Romania was also the country where the largest Jewish population in Axis Europe (that within the country's pre-1918 borders) survived almost intact. If the 90% figure is left unchallenged it precludes this significant redeeming feature being recognised. And if the multiple Western authors proposition is not challenged the 90% figure gains a credibility it does not merit.

Nor is it simply a matter of "having more than one author to research the information on". Here we have a case where there is no author who the information is based on. This entire proposition is a fiction! This is, I think, well worth pointing out, if necessarily repeatedly, if it is not withdrawn by its author.

I appreciate that this is tedious for others such as yourself, but there are important wider issues here that bear on the credibility of this forum, the standards of historical evidence and Romania's national reputation. It is not my business, as a foreigner, to defend Romania's national reputation, but on this occasion to do so coincides with the other two.

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi Imp,

You have now redressed the two most serious issues, for which I thank you. Both the 90% figure and the proposition that there is a body of Western authors who claim it are now dead. I therefore gladly withdraw any suggestion that you should be banned over this issue.

I can see how you made your original error. However, I remain mystified as to why you still cling to Johnson who quite clearly blames Hitler, not Romanians. The inherent contradiction between Johnson and historical reality in this area is so obvious that he is effectively discredited on this subject.

I also withdraw "pig headed" as being "unparliamentary" language. However, I still believe you are unreasonably obstinate, which is what the phrase means. But heck, none of us is perfect, not least myself!

Cheers,

Sid.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm

Another person reading Johnson and coming up with 750k in Romania. Coincidence?

This post has been edited by Imperialist on April 18, 2007 06:23 pm

No! they probably made the same mistake as you

Kev in Deva

I think your cheerfulness is out of place considering the issue harrowingly debated on this thread and the energies involved in it. But I guess you're free to mock.

take care

This post has been edited by Imperialist on April 18, 2007 08:13 pm

Hallo Imp

Again you make a statement without knowing the facts, I am not mocking anybody, simply stateing that YOU who obviously pride yourself on the accuracy of FACTs,

Were found to be incorrect in your intial posting.

So what is to stop lesser mortals making the same mistake

Try not to burn up to much energy reading this.

Kevin in Deva

Listen, I posted the link to show Johnson's claim that 750k jews were killed in Romania is not a figment of my imagination or erroneous reading on my part, and he does write that.
I don't want to enter a debate with you because I don't see what's there to debate and your attitude is already laced with aggressivity. Your opinion that I'm wrong? Feel free to hold it.

This post has been edited by Imperialist on April 19, 2007 07:22 am

Bit touchy this morning are we not.

My reference with regard "knowing the facts" was to your suppostion about my cheerfulness and the statement you made saying I was mocking.

But yet again you manage to get the cart before the horse.

Try to accept that every reply / post that does not agree with you is not some form of personal attack, otherwise you might get accuesed of being paranoid.

Have a nice day,

Kevin in Deva

P.S. "aggressivity" = does such a word as this really exsist in the English language??

This post has been edited by New Connaught Ranger on April 19, 2007 08:57 am

Yes, I understood that the reference regarding "knowing the facts" was to my suppostion about your cheerfulness. But you talked about my initial posting too. And yes, I accept that you don't agree with me, like I said feel free not to.

But let's not drag this into personals. If you want to discuss further, we can do it by PM.

What I didn't get was what are your arguments regarding the mistake done by that person that also read Johnson's book.

Quite simple old chap,

I believe more than one person reading / using the same book, item, statistics, web-site etc..etc... can draw the same (mistaken) conclusion.

Kevin in Deva

What conclusion? There is no conlusion drawn, just raw data noted: Romania - 750,000 jews killed - source: Johnson. I see no conclusion, only data. If you're saying we made a mistake and that is not the data put forth by Johnson, on what do you base your claim?

take care

This post has been edited by Imperialist on April 19, 2007 11:38 am

Imp

Sid pointed out where you made your original error, now you are saying there was no error in quoting Johnson?ß

Kevin in Deva