"How do you fight a Tank?

[Der Maresal]

"Mann Against Armor"
How do you combat tanks as infrantryman? - what are your options?

Here are a few things I tought of...
-Is it true that the closer you get to a tank, the safer it is?
-A tank has many blindspots, therefore it is safe to approach.
-It's own loud noise is one of it's weaknesses - not only it draws your attention from far away that there is a tank in the area, but you can approach it and it cannot hear you.
-What is the best place to attach a mine or expolisve to?
-It's armor to the rear is it's weakest spot, right?
-The armor on the back where the engine is, is the thinnest, and also there are ventilation holes cut into it to let heat escape
-If you sit in a trench an ennemy tank rolls over it, -it's tracks sink in the ground by around 5cm !( ), and then you must supress your fear and jump out of the trench and run as fast as you can towards it and stick a mine on it's back!! (I read that in a book) - :!:
***-Are Molotov Cocktails any good? If you take a Bottle of Gasoline and attach 2 or 3 greanades or sticks of expolisve with duct-tape to it, and then throw it down the hatch... I think that's one of the best weapons to use...It should devastate the interior.!!

-Using a flame thrower against a tank - ..how productive would that be?
(I mean, if you manage to climb on it and then shoot the flame down the hatch.. Could this be effective?

I read how french partizans used to put mines on the road and cover them with horseshit. - The germans got nervous and had to threat every little 'pile' of dung they saw on the road as potential booby-trap.!

-* There is this great movie from ww2 with very dramatic footage of Infantry man fighting Russian tanks - It is frightening, and I also think it's worth the money. Perhaps you would like to buy it...


here..the adress - great movie! http://ihffilm.com/24.html
I was just curious about the instructions of the Romanian army (back then in the war) and the modern army today - on Fighting tanks.. :wink:
- I put this post here because on occasion romanian soldiers did fight one on one against tanks - like the story by Stalingrad where a soldier climbed on a T-34 with a hammer or an axe, and started hitting it... :cry:
So, how do you fight tanks?
anybody have any suggestions?

[Dr_V]

First I want to tell you that what I'm gonna tell here is not my estimative thinking, but I'll tell you what a WW2 veteran (he was a pioneer, seargent) said about his experience on the front. I've discussed that quite a few times with him and I was qute surprised by some of his ideas.
I'll try to answer to your questions in the order you've put them:

- you certainly are safer if you are ner the tank, but this means only a few yards and preferabely not in front and as low as possible

- the blind angles of a tank vary according to the model. Most tanks have such angles in the rear and in various proportions on the sides, but, if the tank is moving its turret, the crew can look arownd quite a bit, so it's not simple to aproach a tank in combat. A more successfull method is to hide in a pit and wait for the tank to pass by.

- You're right about the noise, a tank crew can hear almost nothing axcept what's inside and the very loud explosions, but they don't expect to hear the infgantry coming, they look for them.

- my old friend rarely used AT mines, as the Romanian pioneers in his unit were not equipped with such weapons, only captured ammo was available and very rarely. He thinks near the tracks is the most inspired spot, if the tank gets stuck it's a sitting duck, but if you try to place the mine underneeth (as in the movies) you expose yourself if that tank makes an unexpected change of direction. And the rear plate of the chasses is not always vulnerable to a mine, depends on the model.

- a tank (any model) has 2 main week spots (regardind infantry): the tracks and underneeth. The rear plate is thinner, but this is usually exployted by tanks or AT guns, it is not so thin to be penetrated by hand guns or grenades.

- exposed ventilation holes were a weakness only in old types, "modern" tanks (built after 41-42) had the rear plates unperforated

QUOTE

If you sit in a trench an ennemy tank rolls over it, -it's tracks sink in the ground by around 5cm !(  ), and then you must supress your fear and jump out of the trench and run as fast as you can towards it and stick a mine on it's back!! (I read that in a book)

- sorry man, but that method is not what my friend liked to use. If he was in a tranch and the tank passed directly over him, he attached a mine on it's belly imediately, but that happened junst once. Tank crews learned quickly that they should avoid passing above tranches and pits. The technique they used was to stay put untill the tank passed theyr position by a few yards and than blast Molotov cocktails in its rear or throw grenades (4 grenades wired together) in the tracks.

QUOTE

Are Molotov Cocktails any good? If you take a Bottle of Gasoline and attach 2 or 3 greanades or sticks of expolisve with duct-tape to it, and then throw it down the hatch... I think that's one of the best weapons to use...It should devastate the interior.!!

- A Molotov kocktail consists in a bottle with a mixture of gasoline and other types of fuel (English ? : benzina + motorina +/- gaz lampant sau kerosen). No grenades needed, as the bottle has a piece of cloth (wet by gasoline) in the mouth and that thing is lit and ignites the whole thing when the bottle crushes in the tank. The combination with the grenade can be done, but it must be an instant-fuse grenade (offensive type), and the explosion of the grenade doesn't do any harm to the tank, just helps to spred the bottle's content better. The effect of the cocktail is that it burns for many minutes on the tank, so inside the temperature gets unstandable (ventilation in the tank is limited) and can generate the explosion on that tank's fuel or ammo inside.



As a conclusion, I'll describe you the technoque prefered by my old friend :
If a pioneers unit must attack a tank (that stays in deffensive), everybody should try to distract the crew by shooting in the tank with everything they can, preferably grenades, they make a lot of smoke and noise, but obviousely with no effect on the armor and one man should try to aproach from the side with the deadly weapon (mine or Molotov).
If the tank attacks an infantry position, you should try to stay low, avoid being spotted untill the tank passes. But imediately when you see it's rear or side-rear you throw the weapon on it. To stand up and run after it it's siucide because tanks rarely attack one by one or in a line and without infantry support from behind. The most effective tactic is to destroy a few of the attacking tans thisway and then ignore the ones that passed you till you shoot down the infantry behind them. The result is that the enemy tanks that got through are isolated within your lines and easy to surround and destroy one by one. Of course this doesn't work if an infantry line is attacked by hundreeds of tanks at once, but with less then 20 it's the best way.

[johnny_bi]

What about panzerschreck and panzerfaust? Do these weapons change the tactique? How ? What about your friend? Did he use such weapons?

[Dr_V]

QUOTE

What about panzerschreck and panzerfaust? Do these weapons change the tactique? How ? What about your friend? Did he use such weapons?

No, he didn't. Such weapons were not available in his unit, they were poorly equipped from the start. They were only using cocktails and grenades and rarely mines, mostly on the western front (when the Russians provided such weapons).
Surely a panzerfaust changes everything, but I can't tell you anything about that. Maybe one of the moderators would have knowledge of the strategy that such a gun imposed.

One thing I forgot about. He told me that Russian tanks were pretty vulnerable to field-artilery fire (I don't mean AT guns, I mean support artilery). A high-explosive shell from the big guns could severely damage/destroy a tank if it registered a direct hit, mainly on the T26 and BT tanks. Unfortunately there were few heavy guns and such kills were accidental, the precision of the atilery was pretty poor.

[dragos]

QUOTE

-Is it true that the closer you get to a tank, the safer it is? -A tank has many blindspots, therefore it is safe to approach.

Some tanks had machine-guns in the rear (KV-1) or on top, in order to prevent infantry assaults.

QUOTE

***-Are Molotov Cocktails any good? If you take a Bottle of Gasoline and attach 2 or 3 greanades or sticks of expolisve with duct-tape to it, and then throw it down the hatch... I think that's one of the best weapons to use...It should devastate the interior.!!  :o

It was not necessary to attack through the hatch. Throwing a molotov on the hull would case the incendiary liquid and thick smoke to pour through embrasures, besides burns and danger of ammo ignition, having a great psihological impact that caused the crew to bail out. I've seen in a propaganda movie two Romanian soldiers igniting a Soviet T-28 with a pole with flaming material hanging of it.

[luer]

Molotovs were most successful when thrown on the engine compartment, but that only worked in the beginning of the war, the lessons learnt by the Russians during the Winter War against Finland were too hard.

The close fighting against tanks in WW2 is one of my main interests, I did a Close Combat 3 mod on this, where you can test the various weapons.

[url] http://www.wargamer.com/Hosted/CloseCombat...lies/pzjg2.html [/url]

But, to make one thing clear: in my opinion, fighting a tank from close ranges is normally not an act of heroism, it is either despair (most often) or stupidity (very common in Germany in 45). While it is true that you are safer when very close to a tank, you are still A LOT safer when really far away. Also, letting a tank roll over your trench is not a good idea after you have been spotted, because tankers also developed the idea to turn your tank once over your hole/trench.

Most of the material on a movie about "men against tanks" will have been produced under fake conditions as propaganda, the German army spent quite some effort on trying to keep the "Panzerschreck" or "Panzerpanik" low by telling and showing the soldiers that they had a chance. Which they indeed had, but not a really big one.

After the Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck came, things were a little different and tactics changed. The early Panzerfausts had max ranges of approx. 35 m, which is still pretty close to a large tank. Accuracy was not too good either. Also, while the warhead had a good maximum penetration, you needed it to go off perpendicular to the armour so that the shaped charge would come into full effect. (Same for the Schreck). Anyway, you did not need to get within throwing range (Molotov, Panzerabwehrhandgranate41, Panzerwurfmine) or touching range (mine, Hafthohlladung, Panzerhandmine), which was before only possible with At rifles or AT rifle grenades, which had not a lot of armour penetration and the latter only a very poor accuracy.

The Schreck had a higher range and was more a real weapon with sophisticated sights and such (+ the possibility to reload), but it was found that it was fired way earlier than the PzF, which meant that the hit probability was actually lower.

What was the point I tried to make ? Too many I guess.

Forgotten. Well, Cheers, Luer

[Der Maresal]

QUOTE

It was not necessary to attack through the hatch. Throwing a molotov on the hull would case the incendiary liquid and thick smoke to pour through embrasures, besides burns and danger of ammo ignition, having a great psihological impact that caused the crew to bail out. I've seen in a propaganda movie two Romanian soldiers igniting a Soviet T-28 with a pole with flaming material hanging of it.

I must have been thinking about modern tanks when I had this in mind, -
I think the tanks of today like T90, Merkava, Abrams, Leopard are probably immune to molotov cocktails. That's why throwing a bottle like this on the rear of it probably will not have much effect and you will need to get on top of it (and hopefully you will find the hatch open ), and then throw it down there... boom!! :idea:


I was tinking of another method of blowing up a tank - that is if you can get an explosive charge between turren and the hull (right under the turret - in the rear). If it is powerfull enough it should separate the turret from the rest of the tank and throw it into the air! :? You think it will work?

Know what I mean?.. Right under the turret, behind those chains - It could work - but you will need nerves of Steel !

I read how in the Gaza strip, a tank was blown with a charge of roughly 120 pounds of explosive (about 55-58kg) I went off underneath the tank, and everyone inside was killed. A General later said that this was not the tank's fault since a charge this powerfull can destroy any known tank in the world.

[dragos]

QUOTE

I was tinking of another method of blowing up a tank - that is if you can get an explosive charge between turren and the hull (right under the turret - in the rear). If it is powerfull enough it should separate the turret from the rest of the tank and throw it into the air!  :?  You think it will work?

Speaking of WW2, artillery shells that hit the turret in vulnerable spots, even if they failed to penetrate the armor, they caused the turret to dislocate from the hull ring, thus preventing turret to rotate.

[Dr_V]

QUOTE

Dragos:   Speaking of WW2, artillery shells that hit the turret in vulnerable spots, even if they failed to penetrate the armor, they caused the turret to dislocate from the hull ring, thus preventing turret to rotate.

For a lightly armored tank a big artillery shell could also deform the hull or even damage the tracks and even ripp off the turret. Also a direct hit could injure the crew members inside by the shock-wave it generated (brutally shaking the tank). I've read about an incident when a Russian BT tank was flipped over by a German 15 cm. shell, but I won't bet it's true.

That effect on the turret ring - was this a problem to all the tanks or the heavy ones (as a Tiger or an IS) were imune?

[dragos]

All tanks have the turret binded by hull by a dented ring to angrenate the circular movement. The case of turret dislocation depends by position of hit, so as the shock or the explosion cause the theet of the hull joint to jump out of the teeth of the ring. The turret of T-34 was shaped so as the slope would cause projectiles to shift upwards or sideways, case in which a dislocation could hardly occur, because the force of the impact does not push the turret upwards.

[dragos]

T-26 is an example of most vulnerable design.


Tiger I


IS-2


T-34

A shot between turret and hull is very unlikely

[dragos]

Note the IS-2's rear machinegun.

[Dr_V]

Thanks man.

For what I've read the agled or curved shape of the turret served also to divert armor-piercing shells if they were not fiered perpendicullary. This was one of the main advantages of the T34 against the Germans that used squarer designs on their tanks. A projectile had a much larger chance to bounce from an agled/curved surface than from a plain one.

[toniyona]

The book "War of the Eastern Front" ISBN ; 0-517-382857 by James Lucas Chapter 24 has some accounts on this subject.
Any way one looks at it, it was not for the feint of heart.

[dragos]

QUOTE

All tanks have the turret binded by hull by a dented ring to angrenate the circular movement.

Actually there is a ball bearing involved between turret and hull, but I'm not much of a specialist in tank construction :? . Anyway, we get far from the original topic, about infantry means of fighting tanks.