tank fright

For starters mr D13-th_Mytzu.

I certainly did not ask you or Victor, Denes to translate anything into English, or even expect you to do it.

I was stating it would be an idea, to have the freely available information on the Romanian war effort in WW2 which is published in Romanian, published in English.

By that I mean actual books and not forum posts. Many German books on the subject of WW2 have been published in English for the World-wide market and now the time is right for the information know about here in Romania to be made available to the rest of the world.

Now I know there are some sources located here I can start to look for them, I notice nobody made any references of these other posts with regards Romanians in Stalingrad when the original poster started this thread, last time I checked I was not gifted with reading peoples minds

Hopefuly you understand what I mean.

Mr Kevin in Deva

This post has been edited by New Connaught Ranger on January 26, 2007 08:49 pm

Just two more points from my perspective:

1. Word of caution to anyone reading german accounts of Uranus. As mentioned in this thread already, germans had a tendency to pass the blame to their Axis allied troops (Italians, Romanians, Hungarians, even Croats) for any military failures. As an example, same story for DAK and the Italians in Africa.

2. With regards to the Don's Bend, even Major General Mellenthin, the chief of staff of the 48th Panzer Corps (which included the 1st Rom. Arm. Division and which served as reserve for the 3rd Rom. Army) admits, though grudgingly, that Romanians reorganized and put up stiff resistance. He also mentions that they fought well on the Chir River battles.
(from "Panzer Battles", by Major Gen. Mellenthin)

I understand what you mean. It would be indeed nice of our part to write a small essay on the way Romanian infantry dealt with tanks and the frequency of tank fright and try to educate those less knowledgeable on the subject. Time is unfortunately a very limited ressource and there are more urgent things to do, at least from my part.

dragos03 was not referring to material posted on the forum, but to materials posted on the website. The Memoirs section contains several interesting fragments regarding Romanian infantry against Soviet armored assaults. There is an article on practically every the military operation up until the spring of 1944. All are the result of many hours of compiling information from different sources and putting it into a, hopefully, interesting form. One would presume that those really interested would start by reading the info on the website, if they do not have any books on the subject available.

As for English-language sources, there is the excellent Third Axis, Fourth Ally of Mark Axworthy.

No, it points to the fact that they were unable to repell the attack, most likely due to lack of adequate anti-tanc means.

Well, of course it was a difference between romanian and german infantry, in quality of training and human material.

I served in 21 infantry batalion, former 3rd Dorobanti "Olt" Regiment.
3rd Dorobanti "Olt" Regiment saw action on eastern front.
One of the oficers (sublocotenent), who was KIA on eastern front, left behind a personal war diary.
He said that he received as replacements soldiers who were fired only 8 bullets on training period and never saw a hand grenade. On the other side, when they were pulled back to refit, this young oficer complained that they were learning how to salute, not how to fire a rifle or to handle grenades.

I don't say that the entire romanian army was like this regiment, but it is reality that some cases like this existed. So, it's easier for one to say that entire army is poorly trained based on particular examples

Note: 3rd Dorobanti fought in the first line.

This post has been edited by 21 inf on January 27, 2007 12:45 pm

It's always easier to generalize, but it isn't something that should be done when discussing history and military history in particular. We should discuss facts, not opinions founded on little knowledge of the subject. Many have opinions, few can actually substantiate them with facts.

Regarding the 3rd Dorobanti Regiment, it it's failure to provide infantry support to the 1st Tank Regiment led to the heavy tank losses suffered on 18 August 1941. Practically they left the tanks to attack on their own into a carefully prepared hunting ground, while they lagged behind. At one moment a part of the regiment retreated in disarray. The heavy weapons company failed to provide any fire support etc. The regiment's commander was fired, as was the division's commander.

ok now the germans needed a scapegoat: the rumanians;and the rumanians needed their own scapegoat: the anti-tank equipement.
bottom line is that rumanian infantry was obviously inferior to german infantry and it was also inferior to russian infantry(you will say it was not) => the rumanian soldiers were very good and did not had tank fright. RIGH?

Entire units? Do you have examples?

So give us examples of situations when old tanks with poor tactis overran our soldiers.

So you must have formed a chronological list of these events. Would you please give us more info on this?

Why are you comparing Romania with Germany and the USSR? Those 2 were great powers, Romania was not. Inferiority in quality and quantity is a given, are you realising this just now? Was this the point of this thread?

no, the point of this thread is how the rumanian infantry reacted when faced with tanks;no matter how many or of what type....
you tell me that a rumanian peasant armed with a rifle who has never seen a tank before,has no clue of it's main characteristics and who watches his NCO firing with a light machine gun at it and the tank is still moving forward with 20 km/h with a huge noise spraing mg fire and high explosive rounds will stand it's ground and fight?for him that steel monster was invincible. this is for early encounters with obsolete russina tanks.
if they earned some experience against those tanks the next shock comes :t-34,kv-1

OK, but you talked about how "entire units" reacted, and how they were overun in face of even "old or updated tanks with poor tactics". I am open to the discussion, and have nothing against you starting the thread BUT give some examples of entire units doing that, and don't change your story regarding type and tactics.

No. I told you a Romanian soldier (peasant or not), armed with a rifle has little purpose in staying and "fighting" the tank with his rifle.

Well, you say he has a rifle. The tank IS invincible.

Again, I feel compelled to ask you, do you have some examples at hand, or are you talking theoretically/hypothetically about those encounters with obsolete tanks?

[edited by admin]

You may want to know that many senior german officers, such as Col. Dingler - part of the 6th Army Staff during the Stalingrad affair - describe Soviet infantry as being very scared and sensitive to artillery. Dingler goes on to say how they would shell soviet assembly areas (and sometimes trench lines) and the troops would scatter and run immediately.

I'm sure some Soviet veterans would take offense to that description and probably have a different viewpoint.


Bottom line - generalizations are usually moronic.

You can talk about a certain unit, on a certain day, and in a certain context, and use hard data to back up your facts.

But saying things like "Romanians always had tank fright", or "Russians couldn't stand artillery and would run like rabbits" - these are both misleading and unfair characterizations.

for imperialist and D13:
if you're such a smart guy you give me examples to prove the contrary

[edited by admin]

As I said, you can start by reading the materials already available on the website:

The diary of lt. Iuga:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/memorii/?language=ro&article=105

The memoirs of sergeant Zamfir:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/memorii/?language=ro&article=106

Myztu and Imperialist, please focus on the discussion, not the man.

rgr Victor, you're right.

Bebe: "Romanii la Stalingrad" by Adrian Pandea, Ion Pavelescu, Eftimie Ardeleanu, published by Editura Militara.