1848/49 in Transilvania, about those revolutionary years

And here is the protest of romanians against union, as they wanted to decide for themselfes:

Point 16 of RNG from Blaj (page 121):

Romanian nation asks the other nations from Transylvania not to discuss anything about the union with Hungary, until romanian nation will be not organised and represented with the power of decisional vote in the national gathering (orszaggyules) (of Transylvania - my note), and if contrary, the Diet of Transylvania will decide the union without romanians (de nobis sine nobis), than the romanian nation protest with solemnity.

Romanian version:

Punctul 16: Natiunea romana cere ca conlocuitoarele natiuni nicidecum sa nu ieie la dezbatere cauza uniunii cu Ungaria, pana cand natiunea romana nu va fi natiune constituita si organizata cu drept de vot deliberativ si decisiv in camera legislativa, iar dincontra, daca dieta Transilvaniei ar voi a se lasa totusi la pertractarea acelei uniuni fara noi, atunci natiunea romana protesteaza cu solemnitate.

Again, perhaps you are quoting a different source, or do not understand the text properly, but the Hungarian one you brought to attention literally says the following (I am referring to point 16 - which is not merely a footnote, but gives THE actual text of the official Petition adopted at Blaj):
"Az olah nemzet ohajtja, hogy az illeto nemzetek ne vegyek az unio kerdeset targyalas ala addig, mig az olah nemzet nem fog, mint alkotmanyos nemzet az orszaggyulesen kovetei altal kepviseltetni, ellenkezo esetben ovast teszen."
In English, literally: "The Vlach nation wishes that the (other) respective nations not to discuss the issue of the union (with Hungary) until the Vlach nation, as a constitutional nation, will not be represented in the Parliament by its delegates, in a contrary case it will issue an appeal" (text in brackets are mine). Nothing more, nothing less.
So, there is no word in this official text of numerical representation (I don't believe back then this was the norm), merely "representation" in the Parliament, among the other consituent nations of Transylvania.

As I said, repeatedly, in this forum (and elsewhere, too), when dealing with history hindsight can distort the historical truth and may lead to false conclusions.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 04, 2010 12:55 pm

I perfectly understand the hungarian version, which is not so far from my translation. You also translated very very close to my translation. I put also the romanian version, for comparison.

If hungarians of the time didnt understand what means representation of romanian nation, it is not my problem, but I believe that romanian sources from the time are perfectly clear regarding what means their representation. Hungarians failed to comply or didnt wanted to comply with the idea of romanians being represented (numerical or not).

So, I dont think there is a false conclusion of mine, when dealing with history hindsight; maybe people of the time didnt uderstand the historical meaning of the momentum, being them hungarians, romanians or others.

At least for the subject which determined the civil war of 1848-1849 from Transylvania, maybe hungarian rulers of this province failed to understand the significance of romanian wishes or didnt wanted to understand them (in 16 august 1846 baron Wesseleny wrote to Kossuth: "if the thousands of nobles should loose their fortunes, and their nationality should be gone, the most part of the milions which would replace them, will be not hungarian", so they were aware of the situation in Transylvania). (source: Silviu Dragomir, Studii si documente privitoare la revolutia romanilor din Transilvania in anii 1848-1849, V, Cluj, pag. 14, 1966).

Linked with the subject of understanding history, could one explain why all nations (serbs, romanians, croats, saxons, slovacs and others) fought hungarians, when all declared the same revolutionary principles? Why all fought hungarians and not each other? Why they didnt allowed hungarians to fight austrians and just sit to crop the fruits of the results? (I dont "buy" the explanation that all were lied by austrians, because they had the political meanings to do so, but they didnt do it).

Also, see the letter of serbs sent to romanians, same link as indicated above.

Still no answer for the question quoted.

Hungarian declaration of independence, April 1849, in english http://www.h-net.org/~habsweb/sourcetexts/hungind.html

Almost one year after the first RNG from Blaj and several months after the last one, still there is no word about romanian rights and recognision. More than that, the declaration says that:

"The most painful aggression took place in Transylvania, for the traitorous commander in that district did not content himself with the practices considered lawful in war by disciplined troops. He stirred up the Wallachian peasants to take up arms against their own constitutional rights, and, aided by the rebellious Servian hordes, commenced a course of Vandalism and extraction..."

The "traitorous commander" was the comanding oficer of austrian troops from Transylvania, who declared his loyalty, of course, to austrian emperor. Why is he considered traitor...?

Wallachian peasants took arms against their own constitutional rights? Which constitutional rights? Those given to an unrecognised and unrepresented nation? The constitution which romanians didnt recognised because they didnt recognised the union of Transylvania with Hungary? The constitutional rights which made them free of being serfs (iobagi) only if they accepted union with Hungary?

These are only a few questions raised after reading the declaration of indepence, among many other questions...

Christ is Risen! 21 inf,
and congratulations for the translations posted! They are indeed very interesting!
Continue on the same direction and at least I thank you for the documents translations!
Well done!

Facts about romanian revolution in Transylvania wrote austrian captain W. Bichman and were translated in romanian and published in Gazeta Transilvaniei in 1883. I will put a few lines here in romanian, as I cant translate into english the specific romanian language of the era.

"La început gloatele nu aveau deloc tunuri. Dar în curând le succese a-şi procura prin speculaţiune şi prin spiritul lor invenţios, fireşte în modul cel mai primitiv. Astea erau tunuri de lemn, adică trunchi de arbori, mai ales de cireşi, găuriţi, căptuşite (bucite, ghintuite) cu tinichea şi legate cu cercuri de fier. De încărcături serveau pietri şi gloanţe (ghiulele) de fier de diferite grosimi şi greutăţi. Lafetele constau dintr-un fel de capre de lemn. Câteva tunuri de acestea le cuceriră maghiarii, dar le pierdură la ruşi, care le trimiseră ca raritate la Petropole. Fiindcă gloatele nu erau defel deprinse în umblarea cu tunurile, pentru aceea vânătorii de munte obişnuiau a ţinti mai întâi cu puşca rezemată pe tun şi a îndrepta tunul după aceasta. În primăvara anului 1849, românii erau aşa de înaintaţi în fabricarea de tunuri încât ei turnară în Câmpeni 2 piese de câte două punţi".

For the english speakers, it would be great if someone will translate the above quotation.

Captain W. Bichman, austrian, in 1883 publishing in Gazeta Transilvaniei about moţi, what he learned in his interviews in 1870's about the events of 1848-1849 years: (unfortunatelly in romanian only, as I cant translate into english the specific romanian language of the era; help wanted for translation, being wellcomed).

"Moţii se deosebesc în multe privinţe esenţial de fraţii lor de la şes. În loc de supunere, care în genere o întâmpinăm la aceştia, Moţii manifestă, ca toate popoarele muntene iubitoare de libertate, la înfăţişarea lor o puternică conştiinţă de sine, însoţită de o cerbicie posomorâtă. Moţii treceau şi la maghiari, inamicii lor de moarte, de un popor tare sălbatic, brutal, crud, greu de guvernat.

Moţul este ignorant, superstiţios, neîncrezător şi după ideile civilizaţiei posedă noţiuni încă foarte neclare de proprietate şi de drept. Cu toate acestea domneşte în ţara lui multă siguranţă publică. Drept dovadă la aceasta serveşte împrejurarea, că nici poşta, nici alte spediţiuni de aur sau de argint din orăşelele muntene, la monetăria din Alba Iulia, n-au fost niciodată atacate. Deşi Moţul este puţin primitor de reforme şi deşi ţine morţiş la obiceiurile strămoşilor săi, trăind în sărăcie şi în cumpătare, totuşi el posedă multă abilitate (îndemânare) naturală şi un mare talent de imitaţiune. Pe lângă aceasta este el cutezător, întreprinzător şi dispreţuieşte moartea."

21 inf, congratulations for your work!

A small help: "coasa indreptata" = war scythe. They were widely used by Romanian irregulars starting with the Middle Ages (a fact documented by many authors), as well as by the Polish militia ("cosinieri", in Romanian) in many notable instances during the XVIIIth and XIXth centuries (see for example here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%9Bciuszko_Uprising )

Battle of Sântioana, near Reghin, 31 october 1848 (published in Gazeta Transilvaniei, 1899).

The battle was described by the commander of the reserve batalion from the force commanded by vice-colonel Carol Urban, imperial army. The commander of the reserve batalion was romanian and published this war memories in 1899 in Gazeta Transilvnaiei, under a fake (pseudonim) name.

In 31 october 1848, in the town of Reghin the drums and trumpets rang the allarm, as a column of hungarian insurgents advanced on Mures valley, from Ghernesig village towards Şapartoc and town of Reghin. Troops, infantry, cavalry and romanian militia were asembled, in the intention to get out from the town. Marching order was commander Urban and his second on comand, lieutenant Storch, followed by a squadron of Chevaux legeres, and at last, the infantry, both regulars and romanian militia. Saxon militia from Reghin, armed with doubled barrel hunting rifles, went into position outside town, on the nearest hill, covered with wine plantation. In the morning of 31 october 1848, v-c. Urban sent as forward guard a force consisting from 1 company of romanian Grezinfanterie an 1 company of bukovinian grenzers ("cordonieri" in romanian language), to meet the enemy at Şapartoc. This 2 companies didnt engaged enemy, withdrew toward Sântioana and joined the bulk of the troops before the fight broke out.

Being in front of all, romanian comander of reserve batalion, captured a hungarian spy, who, life-threatened, discovered the position of hungarian troops, in a large valley westward, while a smaller hungarian troop was hiden nearby, in the gardens. Two Chevaulegers sent by v-c. Urban killed the spy on the spot, returning the romanian comander to the bulk of the troops. V-c. Urban didnt take acount about information provided by the killed hungarian spy, but ordered forward toward the big valley, ignoring that the hungarian troops might indeed being positioned there.

From the woods emerged one or two squadrons of hungarian hussars, while from the bigger valley emerged one row of szekler infantry, in battle formation as tiraliors. The imperial troops were disposed like this: 1 romanian grenzinfanterie companie and 1 bukovinian grenz companie in the center deployed as tiraliors to face the szekler infantry, v-c. Urban and l. Storch with 1 cavalry squadron, behind this deploying the reserves. On the right wing of imperial troops, far away, near Breţcu village was romanian militia consisting of pikemen (lăncieri) led by Vasile Moldovan, and on the far left was a smaller unit of romanian militia consisting of pikemen.

The two enemy lines of tiraliors advance toward each other, while shooting permanently. The imperial cavalry and reserve force followed the tiralior line step by step in their advance toward enemy. After half an hour of advancing and shooting, szekler infantry changed tactics and started a slow retreat toward the big valley, keeping to fire against imperials. Szekelers were followed by imperials and when the imperial cavalry and reserve arived to the smaller valley neighboured by the gardens, the szekelrs hiden in the gardens fired a volley on the imperials, puting them into crossed fire, now from front and from the left. V-c. Urban, realising at last that he felt in a trap, instead pushing forward his reserve, ordered imediat retreat, leaving the first 2 companies engaged from front and left by enemy fire, on their own. The 2 companies engaged by enemy tiraliors, broke the lines and fought with bullets, bayonets and hand-to-hand, each man for his own life, runing after the bulk of Urban forces.

Urban lost the fight, having 36 men dead, wounded or missing. Hungarian losses are unknown. Hungarian sources claim no losses at all, while imperial eyewitneses and participants to the battle confirm a number of insurgents killed or wounded, altough their number remain unknown.

This post has been edited by 21 inf on April 25, 2010 06:33 pm

Regarding the cannons of romanian militia, authors Melinda Mitu and Ovidiu Muntean, in their bilingual romanian-english book "Rememorand revolutia 1848-2008; Remember the revolution 1848-2008", edited in 2008 by Muzeul de Istorie al Transilvaniei, says that one small caliber cannon which use to belong to Auraria Gemina Legion led by Avram Iancu, was named "Decebal". The cannon was preserved initially by Muzeul de Relicve ale Revolutiei de la 1848-49 (1848-49-es Orszagos Ereklye Muzeum) from Cluj, established by hungarians, nowadays the cannon belong to the collections of Muzeul National de Istorie from Bucharest.

Thank you, 21 inf, for all your efforts. Do you know if that cannon can be seen at this museum? Do you have any photos about this?

"La început gloatele nu aveau deloc tunuri. Dar în curând le succese a-şi procura prin speculaţiune şi prin spiritul lor invenţios, fireşte în modul cel mai primitiv. Astea erau tunuri de lemn, adică trunchi de arbori, mai ales de cireşi, găuriţi, căptuşite (bucite, ghintuite) cu tinichea şi legate cu cercuri de fier. De încărcături serveau pietri şi gloanţe (ghiulele) de fier de diferite grosimi şi greutăţi. Lafetele constau dintr-un fel de capre de lemn. Câteva tunuri de acestea le cuceriră maghiarii, dar le pierdură la ruşi, care le trimiseră ca raritate la Petropole. Fiindcă gloatele nu erau defel deprinse în umblarea cu tunurile, pentru aceea vânătorii de munte obişnuiau a ţinti mai întâi cu puşca rezemată pe tun şi a îndrepta tunul după aceasta. În primăvara anului 1849, românii erau aşa de înaintaţi în fabricarea de tunuri încât ei turnară în Câmpeni 2 piese de câte două punţi".

Aproximative translation:

At first the militia ("the mob" in text) doesn't have cannons at all. But soon they succeded to obtain some, trough speculations and their imaginative spirit, of course in a most primitive way. Those were wooden cannons, namely tree trunks, mostly cherry, hollow bored (drilled), lined with tin (could also mean that they were lined with sheet metal, not necessarily tin) and bounded with iron hoops. As loading (projectiles) they used stones and iron bullets (iron cannon balls) of different sizes and weights.
The carriages were like a wooden saw buck (or saw horse). Some of those cannons were captured by the hungarians, but they lost them to the russians, who sended them as rarities (or curiosities) to Petropole (Petersburg probably). Because the militia weren't accustomed at all to aim a cannon ("to go about cannons" in text), for that the hunters aimed first with a rifle propped (probably held by the cannon barrel) on the cannon and align the cannon after it. In the spring of 1849, the romanians were so advanced in the fabrication of cannon that they casted in Câmpeni 2 pieces of two-pounders (probably bronze cannons shoting with 2 pounds balls).

To contras: On the net i didnt found any pics about genuine wood "moţ" cannons. I have to scan one from the books I have, but it will take a while.

To Lup Alb: Thanks for the translation!

Even today, moţii play their "national" music instrument, the "tulnic" (or bucium; or alphorn in english). It is used to remote "wireless" comunication and only the initiated knows what it is transmited with the help of the tulnic.

In 1848-1849 the tulnic was used also to comunicate different messages; it was used of course during battles, to signal aproach of enemy forces, to signal their movements and so on.

Hungarian soldiers who fought in Apuseni Mountain area agaisnt moţi remembered the sound of this musical instrument, and for them was a bad sign to hear it, meaning that moţii are aware about their presence in the area and they could atack. Since XIXth century, practically there it is no change in the way of playing the tulnic, so those who wants to hear how a tulnic sounds, and how it sounded during fightings of 1848-1849, can listen it by accesing the links bellow. One is a specific tulnic call from Ţara Moţilor, the second one has it's title "The call of Avram Iancu". Enjoy!

http://www.trilulilu.ro/Vasuianca/0e9fa9be170aa4

http://www.trilulilu.ro/Vasuianca/28108471d0bbed

And this is how a tulnic looked like, manned by a woman (men rarely played it): http://www.artatraditionala.ro/photogaller...a-cu-tulnic.jpg

Their dimension varied, from smaller ones, to those of 3 meters long. Mine, which I have it at my home, like all my moţi ancestors, has 1,5 meters long.

This post has been edited by 21 inf on April 30, 2010 06:47 pm

First battle for Abrud, early May 1849 http://enciclopediaromaniei.ro/w/index.php...49)&redirect=no

Second battle for Abrud, mid May 1849 http://enciclopediaromaniei.ro/w/index.php...49)&redirect=no

Third battle for Abrud, mid June 1849 http://enciclopediaromaniei.ro/w/index.php...49)&redirect=no

Fântânele battle, early July 1849 http://enciclopediaromaniei.ro/wiki/B%C4%8...3%A2nele_(1849)

This post has been edited by 21 inf on November 21, 2010 09:48 am