1848/49 in Transilvania, about those revolutionary years

Thanks a lot (don't intend to make you embarrassed by so many thaks but it's my way to appreciate an interesting and obviously unknown information) 21 inf! It's interesting all what you said! I found this http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA501980
but no much use for what we are talking about here... but I posted it anyway as general education !
Turning back in central Transylvania have you any information about the punitive actions and atrocities committed by Szekler troops against romanian villages in in October-November 1848? Or didn't they had the opportunity to do so, because they were quickly engaged in fighting by the imperial troops?

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on January 04, 2012 10:27 pm

Szeklers destroyed a number of romanian villages in october/november 1848 in their way. I have to consult my bibliography in order to give you a number of romanian villages destroyed by them, as I cant remember from memory, cos it was not my subject. I'll post next weeks this number if I'll have time. Also, they killed a number of romanian peasants outside fightings, but also the number I cant tell. They are acused that they burned Reghin to ashes and pillaged it after the battle at Sântioana with Urban, but I didnt the issue too much, so I cant tell how it happened in detail.

Ok, a short question this time,
with probably a short answer too! The so-called "lanci" used by the romanian landsturm were actually the "assault sew" which were described in one episode of "1848-1849" (Blog Datina Strabuna) or modified sew probably handmade by the moti? Their use in battle was similar to that of bayonets or maybe similar to spears used in the Middle Ages, that means thrown at enemy from distance?

Lanci were not coasa de asalt or coase indreptate and were not spears. They looked like spears, but the iron tip was biger and heavier than at spears. In battle, a lance was not thrown into enemy, but used as a bayonet. Spears, used by motzes in 1848/49, were for range fighting, being thrown against enemy.

Based on a new, but unverified, information, the 1842M Augustin-type smoothbore musket was also produced, in small quantities, in summer and autumn of 1848, in an arms repair factory in Cluj. These arms had been distributed to the two Honved battalions (nr. 11 and nr. 12) raized in Transylvania. Know something about this? I mean about the raize of these two battalions or the muskets produced in Cluj?

About the 11th batalion I wrote something maybe at this topic some time ago, maybe a year or more ago. It was formed at Cluj. Recruitment centers were at Bistriţa, Dej, Deva, Aiud and Turda. Recruitment areas were: Alba Superioară county (comitat, vármegye), Solnocul interior county, Dăbâca county, Hunedoara county, Cluj county, Ţara Chioarului, Solnocul mijlociu county, Crasna county, Târnava county, Turda county and Zarand county. It was formed by volunteers in July-October 1848. In mid October 1848 numbered 1086 men.

12 honved batalion was formed at Târgu Mureş. Recruitment centers were at Braşov, Şumuleu Ciuc, Făgăraş, Târgu Secuiesc, Sibiu, Sighişoara and Odorheiu Secuiesc. Recruitment areas were: Scaunul Arieşului, Braşov area, Scaunul Ciuc, Trei Scaune, Scaunul Mureş and Scaunul Odorhei. It was formed by volunteers in July-October 1848. In mid October 1848 had 1053 men.

About manufacturing weapons at Cluj, I dont have a specific info, but it is plausible. Citing hungarian sources, more than 10.000 men were asigned to weapons production in Hungary and Transylvania in at least 50 factories and workshops. Smaller workshops were also in function, some of them quite eficient. A small workshop like this managed to produce 4 6 pounder cannons at Sânmartin, near Oradea. A big factory was based in Oradea and very fast managed to make 2 milion rifle cartridges per month. A small workshop in Arad managed to produce about 120 rifles per month, which was a good amount. Cannons were made for hungarian army at Reşiţa and Bocşa. Other workshops working to produce ammo were at Baia Mare, Bistriţa and others. Gabor Aron, a szekler oficer, former austrian military man, managed to make around 90 iron cannons in the teritories inhabited by szeklers in central Transylvania.

In september 1848 the requirements of hungarian army were for 13.000 rifles per month. Hungarian war industry managed to produce about 6.000 per month. Also, at that time ammo production was deficient, but was improved next months.

You're right 21 inf,
I remember I read something about the 11th Honved Battalion here in this forum some time ago! Thanks for the details they are very interesting, as usual, I might say! Before trigger the series of questions about Bem's campaign in Transylvania and the battles from the Apuseni area, I have some questions about the relationship between Avram Iancu and the other moti commanders with the National Romanian Council of Sibiu. I am asking here whether this relation was one of the type political leadership (NRC) - military leadership (Avram Iancu and legion commanders), or something different I don't know? The National Romanian Council of Sibiu has helped in any way the military actions of the Romania legions, was it involved in providing money or supply or what was his role?

Romanian National Comitee (Comitetul Naţional Român), later Comitetul de Pacificare, had the role of a govern and it had, of course, political role, but not necesarly a military one. RNC was choose by romanian people, CP was named by asutrians and had also saxons in it's organisation. RNC was the oficial representative of romanians from Transylvania. All the 15 prefects (Avram Iancu, Dobra, Sever, Buteanu, Balint, Pop Marţian and others) were named by RNC and received written confirmation in their prefect function. Under RNC supervision Transylvania was to be organised as a romanian province, the teritory being divided in administrative units called "prefecturi". Each "prefectură" was to be led by a prefect. Each "prefectură" had to raise a military unit, equivalent of a division. It was planned that each legion had to have 10.000 men. Each prefect and viceprefect had to report weekly or at every 2 weeks to RNC about the situation in their "prefectură". I dont know yet if RNC suported with money the prefects, but if it did, it was insignificant. Comitetul de Pacificaţiune members had their salaries paid by the austrian authorities for the 5 month it existed, until Sibiu fell in hungarian hands in March 1849. But CP had it's own money and this is sure: when CP sought refuge in Muntenia after fell of Sibiu, a "cufăr" with it's money was also evacuated. The money disapeared at some time and a romanian member of CP was acused of steeling it. The money were never found until late 2000, if I rem well sometimes in 2008 or 2009 (but I might be wrong about exact year) when all of them were found buried in the cellar of the house were the CP was sheltering for a while in it's refuge. A good number of romanian members of CP were arested by russian authorities on different charges when they were in refuge in Muntenia.

After going into refuge in March 1849, CP had no influence or contact with romanian prefects from Transylvania, whatsoever. The prefects had to act on their own decisions. Some of them choose to flee into refuge, as prefect Solomon, after being defeated by hungarians; other, like Micaş, also fled, but without fighting too much or close to none; most of the prefects who survived october 1848/march 1849 choose to fight, but it was their decision, not CR's. Their fate during revolution and after that you'll find in my book (short biography). Some of their biographies (long ones), you can find at Enciclopedia României online, most of them written by me. Also, you can find there a try to reconstruct the number of romanian legions, their organisations and in some cases, recruitment areas and their training basis ("loagăre").

Ok, I understand now!
I will search in Enciclopedia României online about them, thanks for saying! I found something, you probably now by now, but I can give the link (it's in hungarian but can be translated online) http://www.epa.hu/00000/00018/00014/08sul.htm - if somebody interested can find more info about Hungarian militias (hungarian landwehr) from Transylvania - most probably the troops who confronted our legions!

And another question, came into my mind after reading this :
http://www.armenian-history.com/The_Armeni...-49_English.htm
Is it hungarian propaganda or the armenians and the jews enthusiastically supported the cause of Hungary? If they do I could understand the ones who lived in Hungary but why also these living in Transylvania? The cause of this support can be found in the traditional politics of any small minority "be on the side of the strongest" (in this case hungarian aristocracy and little bourgeoisie from Transylvania) or is another explanation? Do you know more or have your own theory on that?

You see, as in any conflict, there were people from diferent nations joining other side. It is true that jews joined hungarians. Actually, even after ww1, most of jews declared themselfes hungarian jews, not romanian jews. They like more like this. Why? I dont know. I dont know how many armenians joined hungarians, but there were also austrians, poles, gipsies and even some romanians . I found a handfull of romanians, with full names, who presented their services as spies (or "iscoade" or "călăuze") to hungarian army. Not to be confused with romanians recruited with the force, more than 5.000 men, in the honved batalions. It is not the same thing and who says that romanians joined in great numbers hungarian army, tells pure propaganda.

Kossuth Lajos was of slovac origins and one of his uncles, named also Kossuth, fight with enthusiasm on slovac side and reproached Kossuth Lajos that he joined hungarian side. Petofi Sandor was also of slav origin (Petrovic Alexander). Vasvari Pal (Fejer Pal) was of ucrainian origin. General Bem was polish and from those "famous" 13 generals executed at Arad by austrians in late 1849 only few (2 or 3) were hungarians. Czecz Janos, general, was of mixed origin - armenian, hungarian, szekler and, probably, romanian.

Romanian side was also joined by a few number of saxons. I have no clue yet of hungarians joining romanian side in battle. Politically yes, there were cases of hungarian peasants joining romanian national gatherings, but I doubt the number was relevant.

Because you mention the romanians who presented their services as spies, the very known case of deputy Ioan Dragos (I read this: http://www.taramotilor.ro/cap35.html) can be seen like that or he was used without his knowledge by the hungarians? How do you see this case from the documents you read?

Dragoş was not a spy, he was what we would call today "a căzut de fraier". Dragoş was romanian and deputy in Hungarian parliament. Together with Gojdu and another romanian from Oradea, he issued a proclamation trying to convince romanians from Transylvania to join hungarians. He was convinced by the ideas of hungarian revolution.

In early summer 1849, seeing Kossuth that moţii cant be defetead with weapons, tried to convince them peacefully to lay weapons. A first try was made (but not clearly confirmed with documents) by a proeminent hungarian, at Hălmagiu. Negociations are said to be failed. Next Kossuth's move was to ask for a volunteer to go to moţi to convince them to give up. 2 romanians decline Kossuth's offer, but Dragoş accepted. He was told that if he manage to have succes, he'll be made "comite" of Bihor county. He went to moţi, managed to obtain a cease fire, but major Hatvani entered Abrud during the cease fire. Dragoş was considered traitor and killed. It is still debated today if Dragoş knew about Hatvani's intentions. It seems that he didnt, so he became "ţepuit".

Hey, if the story's so simple, why isn't it more known? I mean, it doesn't look so bad for any of the sides, either Hungarian ("ţepuitori") or Romanian ("good-willed" rather than "ţepuiţi")...
BTW, nice topic, nice discussions, no conflicts! How comes? (rhetorical question, of course...)

Another debated problem from what I read is if Kossuth himself used Ioan Dragos or major Imre Hatvany acted on his own (as he was later -in 1850- charged by Kossuth to prepare a new revolution in Hungary)? Was Kossuth sincere in his offers made ​to Romanians or not?