1848/49 in Transilvania, about those revolutionary years

[ANDREAS]

21 inf,
do you mean the study I mentioned "Atanasie Sandor -Studiu asupra evenimentelor de peste munti cu nararea celor intamplate in partile Aradului"? Or, if you want I could make a copy of the entire book 307 pages (from which only 227 are excerpts and comments after the original documents of the time) called "Memorialistica revolutiei de la 1848 in Transilvania", Editura Dacia, Cluj-Napoca, 1988. There are 13 chapters from of various authors based on original documents or writings just after the revolution. Write me if you want a copy of the whole book, or after the 13 chapters of memoirs or just after the study I spoke about.

[ANDREAS]

In the same book (I mentioned before) I found, only in Romanian translation (the original document was written in german), a petition to Emperor Ferdinand I of Austria by the National Assembly of Romanians of militarized villages belonging to the 1st Romanian Regiment (Grenzinfanterieregiment Nr. 16) from Orlat. This petition is dated September 11, 1848, and is signed by David Urs from Margineni, lieutenant, Mihail Novac de Hunedoara, lieutenant, Ioan Moldovan and Anton Vestimianu, vicars ("paroh"), Ioan Banciu and Constantin Stezar, communal lecturer ("docent comunal"). Although the document is difficult to read (is written in a archaic Romanian from that period) he summarizes the same wishes from the National Assembly in Blaj, f.i. rejection of the union with Hungary, equal national rights for all nationalities in Transylvania, rejection of the recruitment of Romanians for the Hungarian Army, a.o. On the other hand it is interesting to note that in early October 1848 3 border infantry companies from that Regiment were send to guard the passes from Zam, Dobra and Poarta de Fier, 2 border infantry companies were sended to Sighisoara, and one border infantry battalion (5 border infantry companies) were send to Alba Iulia fortress. This battalion replaced the 1st Battalion of the 51. Karl Ferdinand Line Infantry Regiment send to Cluj. This imperial battalion was formed, it is written, in majority of Romanians, and they speak in their own language with the soldiers of the border infantry battalion. Thus confirming the information given by you that the other imperial units in Transylvania (31. Leiningen, 51. Karl Ferdinand and 62.Turszky Regiments) the romanians were present in large numbers, even in majority.

[21 inf]

Yes, in 11 september 1848 was the gathering of romanian soldiers from Orlat Romanian Border Regiment. They expressed their will to subscribe to Blaj romanian declaration. Later in that day it was held a civilian romanian gathering at Orlat stating the same issues. Axente Sever and Treboniu Laurian were present. 200 romanians joined Axente and march toward Blaj to participate to the 3rd Romanian National Gathering from Blaj. En route they made military training under supervision of lt. Jovian Brad from Orlat Border Regiment. Eventually Axente will arive at Blaj with 2.000 men from 200 initially.

Aproximatelly on the same time a national gathering occured on 2nd Border Regiment from Năsăud with the same result as in Orlat. A petition was sent to austrian emperor and thousands of romanian volunteered for the regiment.

[ANDREAS]

Returning to military conflict theme, Czetz mention the hungarian battle group (led by major Beke) from Zarand area, which was in action from December 1848 in Halmagiu - Brad region, as the "Observation Corps", described, it's true, as unimportant (numerically insignificant), expressing somehow his regret (indirectly) about its withdrawal from the area in February 1849 (as this Corps participated in the battles with the imperial troops in the south-west of Transylvania). He said that for major Beke was formed a new "Observation Corps" in Oradea, it's core made by 800 german Legionnaires from the Totenkopf-Legion. But this new-raized corps was put under the command of an incompetent military from Bem's Army, Major Koloman Csutak. He said "This good man entirely proved his military incompetence most clearly by his actions. It was during the months of March and April (1849), that he couldn't win a better position than that from Baia de Cris (where Beke was) to Brad, a distance of several German miles, and this in an era where Bem's triumphs, impressed the Romanians with their known fanaticism very much, so that they withdrew in the highest forests and other remote areas at long distances from the places where Hungarian Military stood and dared to gather only there."
From Csutak memoirs he described his forces on February 19, 1849:
-the 27-th honved battalion, with (only) 800 men,
-a century from the German Totenkopf Legion -155 men,
-half-squadron cavalry, assembled from Sandor and Vilmos Hussar Regiments -56 men,
-two companies of Salonta National Guard with a total of 400 men,
-one company of Bihar National Guard with (only) 206 men,
-a company of 164 Guerilla Fighters,
-two pieces of 1pdr, and one piece of 3pdr cannons and its wagons -32 men,
Total - 1,813 fighters
It would be interesting to know what were the forces available to the Buteanu's legion that faced the hungarians in this battles. So that we can form a picture of the relative strength of the two sides in conflict (this criteria is relative obviously, because Romanian forces hadn't similar military equipment or training as their opponents /or at least, as some of them/).

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on February 01, 2012 11:38 pm

[21 inf]

At the begining Csutak indeed had 1.800 men. Eventually he received reinforcements reaching to 2.600 men, but for no use as he didnt managed to gain any significant victory. After his own apreciations in Zarand hungarian army needed some more thousands men in order to keep romanians at bay.

Csutak started his expedition in Zarand from Oradea after he supervised a wounded convoy after the battle of Simeria in early february 1849. His battle orders pointed that he had to "pacify" the romanians in Zarand by military force and he was asigned to a political comisar. Csutak raised a batalion from all walks of life from hungarian ranks from Oradea, a good part of his men being convict from Oradea's dungeons.

He ocupied Hălmagiu first, but found it emptied by romanians who were hiding in the forests and mountains. From Hălmagiu he went against austrian army near Lipova if I rem well (citing from memory). He returned Hălmagiu only to be permanently harassed by romanians. In his memories he says that it was very dangerous for his honveds to walk in and around Hălmagiu especially if they walked alone, many of them getting killed by romanian guerilla. Even smaller groups of honveds were at risk of being atacked. He said that 4 hussars entered a romanian house in Hălmagiu to rest from fatigue. The romanian owner of the house let them get in and go to sleep and then he burned his own house in order to kill the hussars. They managed to escape at last minute, but Csutak exclaimed: "Aici până şi frunzele sunt duşmanii ungurilor".

The he went to Baia de Criş and then to Brad, but with little results as he was under permanent harrasing by romanians. Eventually he was recalled by his bosses under repeated acusations of theft.

The sources I readed didnt gave the size of romanian forces oposing Csutak. He himself writes only about the austrian forces he faced. In the rest, it seems that he confronted only isolated but permanent atacks from small units, maybe platoon sized from Buteanu's legion, but this is only my suposition, or atacks from organised villagers. A little biger fight he describes north of Brad in mid April 1849 I wouldnt believe took place actually as he link it with a meeting with Avram Iancu, wich I supose never took place and was only his invention to make his bosses feel sorry that revoked him (few days later occured Hatvani's defeat at Abrud. Hatvani was Csutak's replacement in the area and Csutak perhaps wanted to say that if he wasnt revoked, he was on the point of determining Iancu to put down the weapons peacefully, which I personally I dont believe that was the case or posible)

[ANDREAS]

Thanks for the interesting details, 21 inf!
If I understand well, the charges (which I found by Czetz f.i.) related to the poor military capacity of Csutak, must be related to a change of tactics of Buteanu's troops! Because I related this information with those, previously mentioned, about the defeats of Buteanu's forces in the battles from Tarnava and Brad (november 1848) or the defeats from january 1849 when Halmagiu, Baia de Cris and Brad were again occupied by hungarian forces led by major Beke József. The Romanian troops learned from the defeats and adopted a different tactic, avoiding open confrontation, where their opponent can capitalize superiority in weapons, training and sometimes even in troop numbers. It's only my assumption!
Czetz memoirs again:
It seems, however, that major Csutak rested a long time on his laurels in Baia de Cris and Boita, for we find him without intermediate acts only on 20 April in Brad again, where he issued a proclamation to the Vlachs, in which he exhort them for rest and peace, but also threatens, with the sword of vengeance, all who refused to submit to the decisions of the government.
We want not to bore the reader with this not very meaningful document (Csutak written report on the fighting actions) and refer simply to the number 90 of the Közlöny von Debrecen on 27 April 1849.
The government was finally noticed, despite the many reports received, of the tardiness of Major Csutak, in addition that this good lord liked better in the pillage of the poor inhabitants from Baia de Cris, Boita and Brad, and to collect treasures for himself, as to act as a military commander in the open field. He was therefore recalled, and brought before a court martial. Put at his command was a certain Major Hatvani, a very unfortunate choice.
My question is: how many of these accusations are true, and attributed to him, and how many are, in fact, skilled command actions conducted by moti military leadership? I speak here only about the low military effectiveness of the hungarian military forces led by Csutak.

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on February 02, 2012 09:00 pm

[21 inf]

Well, I can only emit some supositions linked to what I readed: first of all, Csutak was a civilian, a lawyer, even if he served for a while in the army in his early life. His troops were assembled from a good part of rookies with no military experience at all and from convicts. Csutak himself is complaining in his memories that he had to put a lot of effort to keep his men together and to try to impose a sort of basic discipline, at least for the sake of the military denomination of his unit. His men were or young nobles who were disobeying orders, or civilians looking for personal profit from the expedition. Many of his noblemen had so many baggages carried on the field that Csutak had to strongly forbid any and many personal wagons which followed his batalion. Secondly, he personally was interested in personal profits, robbing not only romanians, but his fellow hungarians too. I doubt that Csutak's hungarian superiors were taking into account romanian petitions against him (if existed any, I doubt that romanians were complaining to hungarian top oficers or government as they didnt recognised them) thinking that hungarian rulers sent Csutak against romanians! More probably his fellow countrymen hungarians from Zarand complained against Csutak or who knows, maybe some of his men or officers (as in the case of Hatvani). That's I believe are the roots of Csutak's lack of military skills.

On the romanian side, we have to think that in november 1848 when major Gal entered Zarand, romanians from Apuseni Mountains were just starting to assemble and train for battle. The most and main romanian training camps (loagăre) were build in middle October 1848. In Zarand, mostly in it's eastern part, I believe the camps were not even assembled when Gal entered the area, so romanians could opose with real success. The romanian forces Gal faced I think were hastily rased under arms and couldnt have real chances of success. At the time Csutak went to Zarand, romanian forced had (at least a part of them) some training and even battle experience. At least some of Buteanu forces, maybe reinforcement sent by Iancu, were already battle hardened in this military actions: the march toward Turda in november 1848 - all Auraria Gemina Legion participated; the fighting at Ciucea - a total of 3.000 moţi participated to this battle; the survivors from battles with Gal; the battles against hungarian army marching from Cluj to Blaj and Alba Iulia; the battle of Simeria; battles in other parts of Transylvania, as far as Reghin as was the case of Vasile Macarie Moldovan prefect, who foght at Reghin and then seek refuge at Câmpeni. Let's not forget that between Gal's expedition and Csutak's expedition was an interval of 3 months and there were continous fightings as between this 2 oficers there were others going in the same area toward Deva, so fightings never ceased, allowing romanians to gain battle experience.

[21 inf]

In January 1849 Buteanu assesed his forces to be so able for fight that he wanted to block hungarian army's way from Deva to Arad. In a letter sent from Buceş to Avram Iancu in 27 January 1849 he wrote:

Frate Iancule!
Astăzi către Deva toată ziua sună tunurile. Oficiantul (officiolante) soldaţilor Klokutian din Zlatna mi-a scris cum că dânşii nu pot veni în Zarand pe Grohaş, de aceia mi-au făcut cunoscut că dânşii vor veni cu toţi oamenii să le stăm în cale la Brad, sau mai înainte.
Pentru aceia, în numele naţiunei române şi a imperatorului, vă provoc că numai decât să plece tot lagărul încoace, că împreunându-se cu noi să le stăm în cale ca să nu poată fugi în Ungaria. Eu scol toate satele de pe aicea.
Guarda (guardia) din Abrud să vină toată sau le ia puştile şi le dă la alţii mai harnici. Miliţia încă ne urmăreşte.
Buteanu
Buceş, 27 Ianuarie 1849

[ANDREAS]

It's really interesting when Buteanu decide to mobilize his forces, which is simultaneously to the first battle (lost by General Bem) from Sibiu. Buteanu probably understood the importance of the route Halmagiu -Brad -Deva for the operations, but probably failed to achieve much of what he proposed, as the city of Brad was occupied by Major Beke forces in January 23 and held by them until February 17, when they voluntarily abandoned the city in their move to Deva. Major Beke's forces were (reconstructed from Czetz memories) in early February 1849 composed from the 1st Battalion/1st Szekler Border Guard Regiment no.14 (900 men), two companies of recruits of Bihar's 55th Honved Battalion (600 men) and one riding National Guard battalion from Bihar county (400 men). These forces had to join those of Baron Kemeny Farkas near Deva, and from there march to Orastie, where they took part at the battles with the austrian troops. This battle group (major Beke's) was only a part of the expected help Bem asked from the Hungarian Government, as I read that another group arriving from Arad (it's mentioned the 72."Mariassy" Honved Battalion, a Torontal National Guard Battalion, a company mobilized from Arad and probably other forces) from the Mures valley, was the main force that helped Bem's forces in the well known Simeria battle. This battle was very important in the course of the war, and an eventual lock (retaining) of the Hungarian forces from Brad (mr. Beke forces) would have helped (or maybe not?) the outcome of the battle. What prevented Buteanu to put into practice the mobilization of its forces and the retention of the enemy forces in the Brad area in early February 1849? I am aware that romanian landsturm forces were involved in the battles near Deva, but I guess it would had been more important to retain the hungarians in the Brad area...

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on February 03, 2012 10:25 pm

[21 inf]

Maybe the constant presure hungarian troops put on Buteanu's men didnt allowed him to mobilise his forces. I dont have a clear answer in this matter.

[ANDREAS]

A question indirectly related to Buteanu-led troops and the fightings in Brad area in January-February 1849: do you have or see documents or have information related to a military cooperation between Buteanu's Legion and Austrian troops during January-February 1849? Did he received orders or helped in battle the Austrian army back then? Or the orders were received via Avram Iancu?

[21 inf]

Butean had conections with austrian army but I have to check if it was in January-February 1849. At a certain time he was suporting a strong austrian force in Zarand but when this force hastilly retreated he remained alone and had to withdraw, also. The austrian officer comanding this force was lt. (if I rem well) Cernovich.

[21 inf]

The text bellow is the first oficial proclamation of romanian revolution from Transylvania (if it is properly called revolution and was not in fact a combination between national revolution/social revolution/national fight). The proclamation is gave by Simion Bărnuţiu.

I marked with bold 2 passages that made the object of previous discussion on this topic, some older, some new.

The first bold (for a late subject) is a call for peace. I bolded because it was opened (and very fast closed - thank you, guys!) the subject of atrocities. I dont want to open it, I just want to point that until 13 October 1848 there were no atrocities from the part of romanians.

The second bold comes from the older discussion that romanians claimed a proper political representation in Diet, acording to their number. Bellow is the statement. An important thing is that romanians asked not only to be represented acordingly to their number in Transylvania, but also they asked that their representatives to be choosed by them! (in Diet a number of representatives were named by the austrian emperor, others were choosed by the nobility)

(I choosed to post the text in original in romanian to be fully understood how it was written in 1848 and not to loose something when translated into english. If one want to translate it, please feel free to do it)

PROCLAMAŢIA DIN 24/25 MARTIE 1848
Preveghieri despre unie
Ungurii cheamă pe ardeleni la unire cu Ţara Ungurească. Clujul s-a declarat cu mare solenitate cum că vrea a să uni. Aşa vor face şi secuii, poate numai saşii nu. Dar românii ce să facă? De la dezlegarea întrebării acestia atârnă viaţa şi moartea românilor. Aci se cade dară să-şi deschidă ochii toţi românii, că acuma au venit timpul cu care de se vor folosi bine, le vor dobândi toate, iară dimpotrivă le vor peirde toate şi câte le-au mai rămas, adecă vor pierde naţionalitatea, şi cu ea toate.
Ascultaţi dară, strănepoţii romanilor, aceea ce se cade să cugete şi grăiască astăzi tot românul, fie popă, nemeş, ostaş, cetăţean sau sătean, aşa ascultaţi aceea ce să cade astăzi să răspundă românii ungurilor, secuilor şi saşilor.
Noi, românii, până atunci nu vrem a vorbi la unirea aceasta cu voi, ungurii, până nu să va pune naţia românească iară la vrednicia acei politicească, de care o aţi dezbrăcat voi ungurii, cu secuii şi saşii. Voi aţi făcut asupra naţii noastre legi cum v-au plăcut vouă, aţi pus în Aprobatele voastre cum că românii (naţia cea mai veche a Ardealului) îi numai suferită, i-aţi scos până-n ziua de astăzi de la toate dregătoriile cele mai nalte, toate cele grase le-aţi ţinut vouă. De au ajuns vreun român la vreo dregătorie, voi pe acela l-aţi făcut să-şi lase legea, să să lepede de maica sa care l-au născut şi l-au aplecat, şi de naţia sa care l-au ţinut la şcoală cu sudoarea ei, pe sama voastră.
Destul, mai încolo nu vrem a vă număra păcatele, ca să nu tulburăm cu pomenirea lor sărbătoarea aceasta minunată a popoarălor, care au făcut H[ristos] să ne bucurăm într-însa. Astăzi răsună cuvântul cel dulce a libertăţii în toate cetăţile, şi mâine va răsuna şi în toate satele. Astăzi este ziua învierii popoarelor celor moarte.
Românilor, ascultaţi! Voi pân-acum aţi fost morţi politiceşte, legile ţării nu cunosc pe alte naţii vii politiceşte, fără numai dară pe unguri, secui şi saşi. Voi dară, un milion şi trei sute de mii români, nu sunteţi pe lume ca naţie. Încă odată, fraţilor: astăzi este ziua învierii dreptului nostru. Vrem dară să răsturnăm piatra de pe mormânt, să dezlegăm legăturile naţiii noastre cele de 10 sute de ani, ca să iasă din groapă şi să trăiască în veci.
Preoţilor! De sunteţi voi adevăraţi părinţi, cum vă numesc oamenii noştri, nu vă despărţiţi de trupul naţiii, nu vă despărţiţi interesul de al poporului românesc. Vă rugăm, pentru Dumnezeu, să nu vă mai uniţi cu nimenea, până nu veţi vedea fericit poporul românesc, cu care sunteţi de o credinţă. Fiţi dară cu o credinţă cătră olaltă. Voi numai atunci puteţi fi fericiţi, când vor fi fericiţi fiii voştri cei sufleteşti. Apăraţi-vă limba cea dulce şi numele cel strălucit de roman. Spuneţi-le dară ungurilor: „Noi nu mai voim a şti nici despre o unire, până nu să va publica în dietă şi în ţară cum că naţia românească se cunoaşte ca naţie românească!”.
Români nobili, răspândiţi ca stelele cerului pe pământul Făgăraşului, Chioarului, Sălajului şi toată Ţara Ardealului, voi strănepoţii acelora care, cu arme oştindu-să pentru patrie, v-au câştigat nobilitatea, deşteptaţi-vă din somnul cel greu, nu vă lăsaţi să vă mai amăgească cu minciuni, să vă şie numai ca pe nişte lipituri a ungurilor, despărţiţi de maica voastră naţie română! Pentru ce să fie ungurească nobilitatea voastră, care vi-o au câştigat vitejii voştri strămoşi cu braţe române, oştindu-să pentru patrie?! Fiţi dară credincioşi cătră împărat şi cătră patrie, fără fiţi credincioşi şi cătră sângele vostru. Spuneţi-le ungurilor: „Noi toţi gloria noastră într-aceea o punem, că suntem strănepoţi romanilor, credincioşi împăratului nostru şi patriii, dar de uniunea aceasta cu care ne îmbiaţi şi la care ne chemaţi, nu voim a şti nimica până când nu să va da congres naţional, în care să ne putem aşterne şi noi dorinţele naţionale, nu să tot judecaţi voi numai de nobis sine nobis, adică de noi fără de noi, şi până nu să va publica în Dieta Ardealului, nu în Pesta, cum că naţia noastră nu e primită ca naţie românească, nu cum aţi tot făcut pân-acum, de aţi tot umblat cu şovăituri şi cu tâlcuituri întorturate, articoli asupritori. Voi aţi ştiu bine împărţi pentru voi, că aţi împărţit naţia ungurească în două părţi, unguri şi secui, ca să ziceţi că sistema stă în trei naţii, şi pe români să-i scoateţi afară. Acum încă v-aţi împărţit binişor limba şi naţionalitatea voastră, şi de a noastră limbă şi naţionalitate nu vă pasă. Asta nu mai poate rămâne aşa. Naţia română nu mai poate fi roabă ungurilor, secuilor şi saşilor, limba noastră trebuie să aibă cinste cuviincioasă înaintea statului şi a legilor, care le-am apărat şi le vom apăra cu sângele nostru. Naţionalitatea noastră trebue să să recunoască şi să să asigureze”.
Ostaşilor, strănepoţi ai romanilor cu numele şi cu fapta! Regimente române! Eroi lăudaţi de Napoleon! Recunoscută virtutea voastră numai atunci va străluci în gloria sa, când vor [!] fi fiii unei naţii politice vieţuitoare, nu moarte. Uniţi-vă dară cu fraţii voştri preoţii şi cu nobilii, şi cu generozitate şi fără sfială spuneţi-le ungurilor: „Noi nu putem fi odihniţi până nu se va declara în public, prin lege, cum că naţia românească e cunoscută ca naţie românească, numai atunci dacă va fi în dietă adunată cum se cade toată naţia românească. Până atunci protestăm împotriva oricărei uniri care ar îndrăzni să facă cineva cu numele naţiii”.
Români cetăţeni şi săteni! Să nu faceţi pagube nimărui, să nu vă atingeţi de persoana nimărui, că oamenii cei ce fac aceasta nu sunt vrednici de libertate. Ascultaţi sfatul fraţilor voştri, staţi totdeauna credincioşi împăratului şi patriii, dar pe lângă aceasta cereţi vârtos ca să să şteargă iobăgia, că de vreo 10 sute de ani lucrând în cinste brazda domnilor, aţi plătit de o sută de ori pământelele acele, care vă dau hrana de astăzi până mâine.
Auziţi, iubiţi fraţi, asta e politica aceea care vă poate mântui pe voi şi numele vostru. Vă rugăm pe voi şi numele vostru. Vă rugăm pentru Dumnezeu, pentru fericirea şi cinstea voastră, să nu ascultaţi de altă politică. Ungurii, secuii şi saşii vor zice: „Unguriţi-vă mai întâi cu noi, apoi v-om da asta şi asta”. Mai adăunăzi zicea ungurii: „Învăţaţi-ne limba, apoi v-om da dregătorii”. Auziţi aici fraţilor, la idei sucite! Cine i-au împuterit pe ei ca să lege drepturile omeneşti de limbă şi de unia lor? Nu le credeţi, vor a vă înşela. Răspundeţi-le: „Proclamaţi întâi pe naţia românească, lăsaţi-o prin Dieta Ardealului, prin reprezentanţi aleşi de români după numărul neamului nostru, lăsaţi pe români la adunarea comitaturilor, districtelor, scaunelor, şi atunci vom vorbi şi noi ca naţie, cu voi ca naţie.
Încă odată, fraţilor! Fără de naţionalitate pentru noi şi republica e numai un despotism afurisit. Ştergerea iobăgiii şi naţie românească şi congres naţional, în care să ne înţelegem mai nainte despre dobândirea acestora, nici mai mult, nici mai puţin. Acestea mai întâi, celelalte toate să vor adăoga. Fără de aceste şi raiul încă e iad.
Afurisit să fie în veci oricare român va îndrăzni a face vreo unire, până nu va fi proclamată naţia românească. Poporul românesc de aceea nu vrea să ştie, numai dacă să va primi naţia şi să va şterge iobăgia. Atunci von fi odihniţi şi fraţi cu toţii.
Să trăiască naţia românească, să trăiască împăratul!
B...

This post has been edited by 21 inf on February 05, 2012 09:52 am

[Dénes]

Here is an excerpt on an episode of the 1848 clashes between Rumanian and Hungarian forces, scanned from the book I've mentioned (1848-1849. Pictorial History of the Revolution and Freedom Fight. Collective of ten historians, TKK Publishing, Debrencen, Hungary). This one refers to the battle of Zlatna and the surrounding events:







I have no time to translate it, but perhaps others can do an excerpt of the important information.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 05, 2012 12:58 pm

[21 inf]

Thanks, Denes! I will read it!

Ok, I read it! The source you posted presents in general terms the same situation romanian sources are presenting. I hope my further lines are not too much or too detailed

There are a few diferences, although, the romanian sources are saying that:
-at the date of the clash in Zlatna were also hungarian national guards that didnt belong to Zlatna, they were from other hungarian villages;
-Avram Iancu was not aware what prefect Petru Dobra was doing; a general impresion even in romanian mentality is that Avram Iancu was "the boss" of all romanian fighters and prefects - nothing could be more wrong than that (Iancu was just a prefect, maybe more proeminent due to his personality, but after all, he was just a prefect)! In October 1848 Comitetul de Pacificaţiune was comanding to ALL romanian prefects, including Avram Iancu (he himself could comand only his legion, Auraria Gemina!!!); most of romanian Landsturm action were comanded by Puchner
-the Legion of Zlatna, planned to be comanded by Petru Dobra, was never raised - his men which go to Zlatna in 23 October 1848 were armed peasants raised from villages but no registered legionaires (all legions had written down the names of their fighters, including age, village, marital status and weapons each had);
-after Zlatna disaster and mainly due to it, Legion of Zlatna's organisation ceased
-romanian sources point that Dobra and the romanians from around Zlatna acted without orders from Comitetul de Pacificaţiune or austrian military hierarchy. They heared about other hungarian villages were the hungarian national guards were disarmed and acted at their own decision to go to Zlatna and to take weapons from hungarians
-romanian sources say that Nemegyei was responsable for the clash, as he ordered fire upon romanian peasants who were waiting what the hungarian-romanian comision build ad-hoc in that day will decide about hungarian's weapons lay down

Just for one who is not very familiar with 1848/49 events (and/or eventually development of Zlatna clash), some info:
-it was not uncommon that a national guard from a city or village to have hungarians, romanians and germans if the settlement contained all this 3 nations. As things progress toward a civil war, the national guards separated on national criterias, all nations having it's own guard
-this kind of negociations for hungarian laying weapons were often autumn-winter 1848 and also often it went without bloodshed
-from October 1848 austrians take the decision they will keep Transylvania for them. So, the term of "rebelious" aplied to romanians by hungarians finds no more it's place (from the point of view of one who would consider legal the austrian law, of course. From hungarian point of view, their revolution was still raging and they considered the other side as rebelious, or insurgent). Romanians could be considered rebelious by hungarians only between aproximatelly June to October 1848, when austrian emperor Ferdinand aproved hungarian's will and gave hungarians "carte blanche". From October austrian power came back and declared hungarian revolution as illegal.
-Nemegyei was known between romanians having from June a deep anti-romanian atitude, as he was part of Kosma comision investigating romanians about posible revolt in the center of Apuseni Mountains
-Nemegyei was killed at Presaca; his wife was badly wounded (I dont have info if she survived); his son, about 8 years old, was wounded but managed to survive and was sheltered at Cluj by a hungarian noble man
-from the total of more than 600 hungarians killed by romanian peasants at Presaca about 200 were women and children; the rest were armed men
-the killings of Presaca started when some romanian peasant saw to a hungarian lady a big amount of cash and jewelry. The disaster occured due to romanian peasant's greed. It is hard to believe Dobra could control such a mob who was not organised as legion, so things went out of control.
-after Avram Iancu heared about the disaster, he sent his own men to save the surviving hungarians if there left any

In all, it was a tragic event, like others which will occur in the further period from both sides. I hope the discussion will not degenerate in a list of massacres and killings both sides did.

This post has been edited by 21 inf on February 05, 2012 01:50 pm