1848/49 in Transilvania, about those revolutionary years

Denes, do I remember wrong or we set that the topics discussed here to be related to the political-military events and not related to the massacres and atrocities. The tragic events from Zlatna occurred in the context of Puchner's orders to disarm hungarian militias, as a consequence resulted from the mixture of armed militias actions (against romanian militia) and civil population solidary in the feelings with the first. This did't mean I justify the massacre, no way, I only try to explain the events who happen because of this context. On the other hand, I already quoted atrocities and crimes against Romanian civilians happened far away from combat zones, and lacking the slightest opposition to the Hungarian troops. But this is meaningless, we can learn nothing from this!
21 inf, thanks very much for posting the document in the language it was written! It is indeed more relevant this way. I read right now a book in German -"Der Winter Feldzug des Revolutionskriege in Siebenburgen in den Jahren 1848 und 1849 von ein Osterreichischen Veteranen", Leipzig 1861- and is a interesting problem that arises, the military action or the Romanian landsturm along with Imperial troops to disarm Hungarian militias (and Hungarian regulars) in October-November 1848 in Transylvania. I admit that one of the issues that interests me much is the survival of many Hungarian regular army units (Honved Battalions nr. 11 and 12, (Matthias) Hussar Regiment nr.15 a.o.) who could be found in december 1848 in Bem's Army when he invaded Transylvania. Probably these units were previously supplemented with volunteers or conscripts from Hungary but still the core was from Transylvania, at least if we believe Czetz...

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on February 05, 2012 08:11 pm

Andreas, the survival of this hungarian units might be in the way Csutak's batalion survived. When he arived at Oradea he wanted to have his batalion in the action again, but he had too few men. So, he raised a new batalion in only a matter of days (if I rem well in 3 days). The units you cited might have raised new ranks from local population from Transylvania, including romanians drafted by force.

No 21 inf, I mean Bem's army before the invasion of Transylvania, in early december 1848, with the units disposed in the Ciucea -Zalau -Jibou areas. But I don't disagree when you suppose that this units could be filled or even new raized from volunteers and even recruits from that regions or the neighborhood! I will post as soon as I finish reading what the Austrian sources mentions. For now, I can say with certainty, that all sources (Czetz and austrian) said that Cluj city was left by Hungarian troops without a fight when the imperials approached the city. Maybe this way some of the Hungarian regulars survived?

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on February 05, 2012 09:04 pm

By the way, 21 inf, when you have time and patience to help me, please translate what is written here: http://toborzas.hm-him.hu/main.php?mod=1&s...&vez=&showa=187
about the Transylvanian units : 11, 12, 134 -137 Honved Battalions, 15 Hussar Regiment! Only when you have time! I only understand military terms in Hungarian so... And honestly the google translator sucks sorry for say it!

I posted that excerpt not to put emphasis on the massacres of Hungarian disarmed men and civilians, but because that was one of the few details of the Rumanian-Hungarian conflict detailed in the mentioned book. It's a good occasion to show the current Hungarian historians' view of this conflict.

Gen. Dénes

Andreas: ok.

Denes: what you posted is wellcome, is good to know what others have to say about those events. I am interested in hungarian hisotry book, in order to match them with other sources. Please keep posting. I didnt take it as an emphasis on massacre.

As I said, I want to briefly present the military operations from october-december 1848 in Transylvania as described by an Austrian veteran. They appear in its description as a reaction of the Imperials to the szekler revolution (proclamation of joining the Hungarian Revolution) namely the military actions triggered by the 4 organized Szekler Brigades. The fights I want to describe are the ones that involves the Romanian legions who were in control, in early November 1848, of the entire left bank of the Mures river, from Ciugud (face to Alba Iulia) to Ciumbrud (face to Aiud), and the light cavalry detachment (from the 15."Mátyás" Hussar Regiment) led by gróf Bethlen Gergely and an infantry detachment (from the 11th Honved Battalion) led by báró Bánffy János who defended the right bank of the river. The camp where the romanian forces were stationed was at Noșlac, camp which was under fire from the other bank of the river. But because the Hungarian forces in the area were weak facing many thousands of armed Romanians, the latter began to cross the river by a ford. But before one third of the Romanian forces crossed the river, gróf Bethlen Gergely with his hussar squadron attack them vigorously. Over 800 of the romanian were killed or wounded, other 700 were scattered, so the city of Aiud was saved from the same fate as Zlatna (his mention). The danger was still present as the Romanian forces in the area remained with about 4000 fighters. But following the defeat of Targu Mures battle, the Hungarian forces from the area had been withdrawn and joined báró Baldacci Manó (Hungarian) brigade (3.500 men with 6 cannons) who who trying to stop the advance of Urban forces towards Cluj. So stopping the Romanians to cross the Mures river was temporary, and only delayed the outcome. The battle from Gherla was won by Urban troops and the retreat to Cluj of the Hungarian forces generalized. After the battle from Someseni where Baldacci brigade (reinforced by the new raised 27th Honved Battalion, arrived from Bihor) was trying to stop Urban, and was defeated again, the hungarian forces withdrew from Cluj, at Gilau. Later the retreated forces from Cluj area were reunited in Ciucea under Czetz command.
What's interesting in all this presentation is that although the one who tells the story of these battles is a veteran Austrian soldier, the Romanian landsturm are portrayed negatively, once mentioning the Zlatna massacre, then the defeat at Noșlac. On the other hand he describes extremely laudatory the Romanian border guard troops of Urban, their discipline and especially their combat effectiveness.

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on February 10, 2012 01:21 am

Another source that mentions this fight (from Noșlac, 25 october 1848), without giving too many details, is "Erdély Törénete 1848-49-ben" by Kövári László, Pest, 1861, which states that in the area (who was very important because of the strategic road Vintu de Sus-Turda-Cluj) defended by 380 honved infantry and 140 hussar cavalry (from which 110 men from the 15."Mátyás" Hussar Regiment and 30 men from the 11. Székely Hussar Regiment), was thwarted an attempt of the Romanian militia to push towards Turda and Cluj. So this battle did happen, but the question is if the proportions of the Romanian militia defeat were so great as written by the Austrian veteran (the book is "Der Winter-Feldzug des Revolutionskrieges in Siebenburgen in den Jahren 1848 und 1849 von einem osterreichischen Veteranen", Leipzig, 1861 -in english "The Winter Campaign of the revolutionary war in Transylvania in the years 1848 and 1849 of one austrian Veteran").
21 inf. or Denes, do you have any other sources who could confirm the extent of defeat of the Romanian militia (800 people killed and injured in a single fight is a high figure) and also who lead this romanian force (if it was a legion or not!)?

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on February 11, 2012 07:28 pm

I am not an expert by any means regarding the 1848-1849 events (I just bought my very first book dedicated to the topic). But if you give me the precise date, I'll try to look it up.

Gen. Dénes

Yes Denes,
It is written that the fighting took place in Noșlac (in the book Nagylak, wiki call it Marosnagylak), at 25 october 1848 (no ideea if new or old style date!) with the participation of gróf Bethlen Gergely led hussar detachment (110 men) and a much bigger romanian militia group -probably up to 1.000-1.500 men (no leader mentioned). It would be interesting if you can find more details about this fight! Appreciate your help!

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on February 11, 2012 10:48 pm

Andreas, I dont have info about this fight. It is not imposible that the numbers of fighters are ok, I doubt about the number of losses (in both romanian and hungarian sources, as some of them are both exagerated). There were some cases when hundreds of hungarian troopers put on the run more than a thosand romanians as the late were armed only with non-firing weapons and they could not stand the fire of hungarian rifles and canons.

21 inf, this is my surprise too! Because in his memoirs, Ciurileanu mentiones that a austrian detachment (2 romanian border companies) led by captain Gratze together with "Auraria Gemina" Legion led by Avram Iancu marched from Teius to Aiud, without meeting any resistance, than marched towards Vintu de Sus advancing on Turda. The military forces meet again no resistance. He indeed say that in Vintu de Sus they found about 100 killed Romanians, who had been before detained in prison. So they burn down the city, as revenge. I wonder if these romanians have something to do with the claimed battle from Noșlac as I assume that the battle happend earlier. Otherwise the Hungarian forces were expected to oppose to the austrian-romanian advance to Vintu de Sus and Turda. My interim conclusion is that a fight is happened, but the losses were not so great on the romanian side.

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on February 12, 2012 04:46 pm

Ciurileanu memories were wrote some long time after the revolution and he mixed the dates, numbers and facts. Without calling him a liar, it is common that as the time passes, the memory of events fade if it is not written imediately after they happened. Ciurileanu mixed some events and dates (they can be compared with the reports of Avram Iancu, Axente Sever and Simion Balint). About figures, he greatly exagerate numbers for both romanian and hungarian effectives and losses. Ciurileanu is in my opinion not quite a very reliable source of information.

Thank you for saying it, 21 inf!
I indeed found as footnotes to his memoirs explanations over many inaccuracies found in his writings, but I assumed that they refer only to the number of troops involved in fightings! It's good to know!
A different battle is described in the book (Der Winter-Feldzug...) in about the same period (25 october 1848) between a Seckler detachment (that split from the brigade who advanced to Blaj, coming from Târgu-Mureş) with the probable intent of attacking the city of Mediaş. The Seckler detachment was about 800 men strong while the austrians had 600 regular infantry (3 companies) and 400 german militia troops from Mediaş. The battle which was held in Șaroșul Unguresc (Deleni) was a clear victory for the imperials, who claim that they killed 100 ennemy fighters and captured other 60, with the rest of the enemy column retreating in panic! They captured one flag, two drums and many rifles abandoned by the ennemy, having only 6 men injured. The austrian commander was not very satisfied, since the enveloping maneuver was not succesful enough (brought him not so many prisoners as he wanted) as it's written. But he was satisfied of the capture of a lot of enemy propaganda materials (including a declaration addressed to Mediaş citizens by Baron Banffi Janos, a nice decorated hungarian flag which was to be placed in the occupied city, many publications, a.o.), and many animals and money looted from Romanian and German inhabitants of villages burned by the "ennemy hordes".

I have to say that I described the battle of Șaroșul Unguresc (Deleni) just to make a comparison with the claimed battle from Noșlac, particularly in the number of dead and wounded in one battle! Obviously the battle of Șaroșul Unguresc (Deleni) has nothing to do with Romanians, so it was necessary to bring these explanations!