1848/49 in Transilvania, about those revolutionary years

[21 inf]

Aidan Zea, if read Historia, you can drop it, as it is at least for 1848/49 subject a bullshit, written just to sell the magazine.

And the about the well documented book you said, I would sugest to read the original documents, there not so hard to find on the Internet. Try to read the Romanian proclamations in 1848 and you will see that one couldnt be more pacifists than Romanian inteligentsia of the era.

By comparison, try to see the Hungarian actions and declarations with the extermination (Kossuth, 10 october 1848 toward Romanians), the status of siege instaurated after Easter 1848 to discourage the Romanians to have their National Assembly, the gallows raised in all Transylvania with this ocasion for the same purpose. Would you call it an oportunity of freedom offered by the Hungarian revolutionaries to Romanians?

By the way, when Kossuth threatened the Romanians with exterminations if they dont recognise and join the Hungarian revolution, not a single Hungarian was killed by Romanians in Transylvania (10 october 1848), but there were Romanians killed by Hungarians, or imprisoned just because they spoke what Hungarians didnt liked. Is this a freedom, proclaimed by real men who made revolution in the name of the freedom???

And just to finish, you know that in the Romanian revolutionary program was no reference to liberties proposed by the Austrians? So, the Romanians were not "deceived" with false promises. They just asked what they wanted, national freedom, exactly as the Hungarians wanted. The diference is that the Hungarians wanted their national freedom on the expence of the Romanians, at least in Transylvania.

I sugest to tell us the name of the author and the title of the book, as it look quite biased. If I'll have time, I'll present you the revolutionary programs of Hungarians, Romanians, Slovaks, Croats and Serbs, to make a better (and corect) idea. I would dare to tell you that your source is deceiving you.

[aidan zea]

Andreas and 21inf, I hope we can discuss in a civilized manner a problem that always will have several facets, by the way you look at it! I saw in your writings the way you saw it and I disagree. I come from a very mixed jewish-german-hungarian-romanian family so I don't see this problem from the romanian perspective only, as you both do! The book I read is "Geopolitics in the Danube Region: Hungarian Reconciliation Effort, 1848-1998" by Ignác Romsics and Béla K. Király, Central European University Press, 1999 and several other books from National Szechenyi Library from Budapest some years ago. But none of the books I read does not address the issue of the Hungarian Revolution, Kossuth leadership, the counterrevolution in Transylvania and the leaders of romanian loyalists from hungarian national perspective. The events are analyzed objectively admitting the obvious errors on both sides, but what is missing from what you have written so far in this topic is an objective critique of some romanian leaders actions (I mean here Avram Iancu and his followers) and hushing the actions of some other romanian leaders (from Crisana and Banat) who understand that collaboration with Kossuth and the Hungarian Revolution is the only way to freedom, and not the war with the hungarian nation. Nobody says that this collaboration with the Habsburgs did not bring them or the romanians any advantage at all! Why not tell anything about this? Why nothing is said about the consequences of this civil war in Transylvania for future relations between the two nations living here? I just sit and wonder?

[21 inf]

Aidan Zea, I can talk very civilised, dont be wory. But I have a request, if you want to have a constructive and objective discussion: when you say, for example, that Y didnt wanted to agree with X, you also point a document or certain information. OK? I will do the same.

And for the begining, in a civilised manner, one question: isn't it a little odd that the Hungarian sources are objective, as you say, while ALL Romanian sources are biased, as also you said?

For the begining, why dont you expose the eforts the Hungarian leaders made to meet the Romanian demads in 1848. After all, they started the revolution, isnt they? After the Hungarian raised against the Habsburgs, the other nations from the empire raised: the Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, Serbs, Italians and at last, the Romanians.

In order to show you how wrong is your source, I'll tell just this: Romanians from Transylvania had few or almost none political and revolutionary conection with the one's from Bihor. With the one's in Banat they some conections. The Romanians from Transylvania just sent a letter to the Romanians from Bihor, asking them to join the common Romanian objective and this was normal, as all were Romanians. If you disagree, is not my problem. And yes, the few (3,4 or 5) Romanian inteligentsia from Bihor favorited the Hungarian revolution. After all, they were not influenced by the letter sent from Transylvania and they tried to persuade the Romanians from Transylvania to join Hungarians.

The Romanians from Banat, at the National Gathering from Lugoj, presented a program very very similar to the Romanian one from Transylvania.

Romanians from Transylvania had better conections with the ones from Banat, Moldova and Muntenia, than to the one from Bihor.

What Hungarian historian fail to tell all the time: all the nationalities from Austrian empire asked for national rights! All! Croats, Serbs, Slovaks, Romanians, all claimed national rights! And independece! Try to read the revolutionary programs of this nations.

Aidan, do you speak Romanian, because it would be easier for me to present you some information?

[21 inf]

Aidan, as I said, let's have a discusion based on evidences, not on personal opinions. So, for the begining, let's see the Hungarian revolutionary program, from 15th of March 1848 and let's see were it is writen in it something about Romanians or other nationalities. So, the Hungarians asked for:

1.We wish freedom of the press, the abolition of censorship.
2.A responsible government in Pest.
3.Annual national assembly in Pest.
4.Civil and religious equality before the law.
5. National guard army.
6.Distribution of tax burdens.
7.Abolition of serfdom.
8.Juries and representation on an equal basis.
9.A national hungarian bank.
10.The army must swear to support the constitution, our soldiers must not be dispatched abroad, foreign soldiers must be removed from our soil.
11.The freeing of political prisoners.
12.Union with Transylvania.

From Păcăţian, T, Cartea de aur, vol I, 1904, Sibiu, page 200

I would point to you that none of the points refered to Romanias and Hungarians didnt asked on 15th of March if the Romanians wanted the same. Anyway, the points were made for the Hungarians only: they had no right to speak about Transylvania, as Transylvania was a diferent austrian province, with it's own Diet (government). Please note the following: 2. government in Pest [so in Hungary, has nothing to do with Romanians and Transylvania]. 3. NATIONAL assembly in Pest [refering to HUNGARIANS] 4. civil and religious equity [in HUNGARY, as they had no right to speak in the name of Transylvania, not even in the name of the Hungarians from Transylvania] 5. NATIONAL guard army [NATIONAL, so Hungarian!] 9. NATIONAL Hungarian bank [NATIONAL, so again Hungarian] 12. Union with Transylvania [on what basis? just because they wanted so? on 15th of March, they didnt even asked at least the Hungarians from Transylvania if they want to unite with Hungary - which, you have to know, on 15th of March 1848 was just another ordinary, common, Austrian province].

Now, Aidan, please tell me why the Romanians from Transylvania would wanted to agree with the Hungarian revolutionary program? What this program guaranteed for Romanians, when it was speaking about so many NATIONAL [Hungarian] demands? What the program guaranteed for the other nationalities?

[21 inf]

Here is the Czech program, from 11th of March 1848:
1. the state union to be guaranteed for all the Bohemian countries. All of them to be represented in the anual Diet and all cities and counties to be represented by delegates.
2. Responsible authorities for this country in Prague.
3. Juries and representation on an equal basis.
4. perfect equalty for the Czech nation with the Germans, in schools and administration.
5. Clerks in the administration who can speak all the languages of the country.
6. Abolition of serfdom, with ransome for the nobles and equal property for all men.
7. Local autonomy.
8. Municipal guards, 4 years service, compulsory for all
9. The taxes to be easier
10. Freedom of the press, guarantee of the personal freedom and freedom for gatherings
11. Religious freedom for all religions.
12. Secret of the coresponce.

From Păcăţian, T, Cartea de aur, vol I, 1904, Sibiu, page 203/204

This post has been edited by 21 inf on January 05, 2013 08:49 am

[21 inf]

Croatian demands, on 25th of March 1848:

1. Josif Jellachich baron is choosed as Ban of the three united kingdoms, who is in charge with the border regiments and has the right to organise the Diet.
2. The Diet to be convocated no later than 5th of May 1848 at Zagreb.
3. A new and strong union, in all points of view of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia, with the integration of border regiments, political administration, and the recovery of all the teritories lost in time and now incorporated in Hungarian counties and Austrian lands.
4. National independece.
5. Independent minister.
6.The use of national language in internal and external administration of the Kingdom, also in all schools, inferior and superior
7. A University at Zagreb
8. Political and spiritual emancipation on the basis of free national spirit.
9. Freedom of press, teaching, of ideas and of speech.
10. Anual Diet, alternatively at Zagreb, Eseg, Zara and Fiume.
11. Equal representantion of the people in the Diet, regardless of rank.
12. Equalty in the front of the law. Juries and representation on an equal basis
13. Equal taxation
14. Abolition of serfdom and serf taxes
15. National bank
16. Recovery of the money and funds administrated until now by Hungary and Austria
17. National guard, led by the Captain of the country
18. National troops to stay in the country in peace time. The oficers to be only from our nation and the language of comand to be our language. Foreign troops to leave the country and our troops from Italy to be brought home.
19. National troops to swear on the common constitution, to their king, on the freedom of the people from all Austrian monarchy, in acordance with the principle of humanity.
20. freedom for all the political prisoners
21. the right for gathering and petitioning
22. No custom taxes between sloveno-austrian-italian countries and free comunication
23. recovery of the old right of bring sea salt in the country
24. abolition of serfdom in the border military teritories and restitution of the lands and forests to the people.
25. the money of the border regiments to be administrated by our minister
26. each border soldier to have equal rights with the civilians
27. border military villages to be free and to self administrate
28. The old Zupanie to be restored, but on the basis of new freedoms
29. All the administration jobs to be given to the sons of our countries.
30. National language in the church

From Păcăţian, T, Cartea de aur, vol I, 1904, Sibiu, page 205-207

This post has been edited by 21 inf on January 05, 2013 09:42 am

[21 inf]

The demands of the Saxons from Transilvania (more conservative, as they had already better rights than the others and they were more concerned to raise the Romanian's status, to have a future ally, just in case) from 30th of March 1848:

1. Reforms regarding comunity organisation's, choosing the members from the juries and not for life term.
2.The right to vote for all qualified citisens.
3. The right to be voted in any position
4. Public financial reports for the public money
5.Public reports for political discussion of comunities, magistrates and Saxon University
6.Verbal procedure in the judgment.
7. Acceptance of the Valachs as equal citisens in the Saxon Lands.
8. Juries.

As one can see, the Saxons asked equalty for Romanians, but only for the reason they knew Romanians were a force if they raised and wanted to secure a ally. Actually, the rights for Romanians were asked only in the Saxon Lands and not in entire Transylvania (or Hungary or Austria).

From Păcăţian, T, Cartea de aur, vol I, 1904, Sibiu, page 208

[21 inf]

The Slovak demands, 28th of March 1848, Liptau county.

1. [Thanks to God]
2. [Thanks to all the sons of the nations]
3. Demands of the slovaks:
a.In the national gathering the slovak language to be used.
b.In judgement, petitions, processes, oficial publications, the slovak language to be used, as this is language the people understand.
c.In schools, the slovaks from Hungary to learn in slovakian language.
d. The national authority of this county to work oficialy since now, in order to properly represent the people in the Diet from Pest.
e. We demand that all inteligentsia of this land to work as best as they can in the interest of the slovak nation, as we cant and dont want to renounce to this national right. ...
f. We want that all our demands to be writen and sent to all authorities, including the Hungarian and Croato-Slovene ones and to others. ...

From Păcăţian, T, Cartea de aur, vol I, 1904, Sibiu, page 220-222

[21 inf]

Serbian demands, 13th-15th of May 1848:

1.Serb nation is free and independent under the protectorate of the House of Austria and general Hungarian crown.
2.We proclaiming Serbian Vojvodina, which includes Syrmia with the Frontier, Baranja, Bačka with the Bečej District and the Šajkaš Battalion, Banat with the Frontier and the Kikinda District.
3.Serbian Vojvodina is forming the political alliance with the Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia.
4.Permanent People's Board is formed, as an executive body of the People's Assembly.
5.We recognise the Vlach ethnic independence.
6.We appoint the Board which will bring these decisions in front of the Emperor and the Croatian Assembly.
7.We appoint a delegation for the Slavic Congress in Prague.

From Păcăţian, T, Cartea de aur, vol I, 1904, Sibiu, page 230

[21 inf]

Romanian from Transylvania demands, 3/15th of May 1848, Blaj.

Excerpt from the oath made by Romanians at this National Gathering:

"...As Romanian, I will always suport our Romanian nation on the right and legal way and I will defend it against any atack and opression. I will never work against the rights and interests of Romanian nation, but I will keep and defend the Romanian law and language, as well as freedom, equalty and brotherhood. On this principles I will respect all the OTHER TRANSYLVANIAN NATIONS, DEMANDING THE SAME RESPECT FROM THEM. I WILL NOT OPRESS ANYBODY, BUT I WILL NOT TOLERATE TO BE OPRESSED BY OTHERS. ..." [caps lock is my underline, as it is the definition of freedom, even in our times: I dont bother you, I respect you, but you owe me the same respect].

The Romanian demands:

1.The Romanian nation, on the principle of freedom, equalty and brotherhood, demands its national independence, in its political mean, to be known on her name; Romanians to have their representants in the Diet acording wiht their number; to have its own men in all administration, judgement and military, in the same proportion; to use the Romanian language in all the matters regarding Romanians, in legislation and administration. One National Gathering every year.
2.Romanian nation demand that Romanian church, disregarding of confesion, to be free and independent of any other church; ...
3. Abolition of serfdom and serf taxes.
4. Freedom for industry and comerce.
5. Elimination of taxes on comerce with cattles with the neighbor countries.
6. Elimination of taxes on metals
7. Freedom of speach, write and printing, with no censorship
8. Personal freedom
9. Juries
10. National guard with Romanian officers
11. Mixed comisions, from all transylvanian nations, to investigate land and forest disputes
12. All Romanian priests to be paid by the state, like the priests of other nations.
13. Romanian schools and a Romanian University
14. Equalty between all citisens, equal taxation and no privileges.
15. New constitution for Transylvania, made by a gathering of all nations from Transylvania
16. Romanian nation ask the other nations from Transylvania not to recognise the union of Transylvania with Hungary until Romanian nation will not be recognised as a nation. ...

From Păcăţian, T, Cartea de aur, vol I, 1904, Sibiu, page 330-332

So, dear Aidan, as you can see, there is no false promise, but only normal demands, as the other nations, including Hungarians, had. No way about deceiving.

In 1848 Romanians were not even recognised as a nation in Transylvania, nor by Austrians, neither by Hungarians. As Transylvanian laws were based in older laws, Aprobatae and Compilatae, in which the Romanians were declared since centuries only "tolerated" in Transylvania and their religion was considered "a sect" or "schismatic", in 1848 Romanians were virtually inexistent from the law point of view. They first needed to gain recognision in order to be regarded as a nation and their demands heard.

And if you really want to know, from the 1848/1849, Romanians gained only bullets, death and fire and no rights from Austrians. Try to see what "privileges" gained Romanians from Austrians after 1848. None. They were not treated as allies and none of their demands were resolved by Austrians, even if Romanians sent delegations to the emperor since 1848 until 1851.

[21 inf]

Kossuth's proclamation to Romanians from Transylvania, 10th of October 1848 (Aidan, you have to know that until 10th of October, no Hungarian was killed or misstreated by Romanians and Romanians had no armed organised army, as the Hungarians already had since spring of 1848!!!) So, this is the "peacefull" apeal of a real revolutionary, who fight for freedom for all?

"...Now, that the armies of Jelacic are running defeated and the traitor'c complice, Latour count received the well deserved punishment, the country's defense comitee adreses the last warning to Romanians: in a term of 8 days, to come to order and law, as good citisens. Otherwise, by God on heavens, the heads of the guilty will be punished by the severity of the law. Our brave army, who routed earlier a horde of traitors and brigands, will go against you and then, voe to all the instigators. It would be better for you not to be born, as there it will be no mercy, for none of you. Even until then, the Hungarians and Szeklers were ordered to raise as a storm and to sweep all the ungratefull garbage who raise agaisnt the freedom of their country and who has no fear to kill their mother and brothers [again, Romanians didnt killed or misstreated any Hungarian to that date]. The Hungarians and Szeklers to raise all and extermine all traitors and rebels. ... The ones who will not obey will be hanged or shot and their land will be given to the faithfull sons of the country..."

From Dragomir, Silviu - Avram Iancu, Bucureşti, 1968, page 96

What would you do if you would receive such a warning, from a country and leader you dont wanted, from a foreign country, who want to decide for you, without asking you? You just told them that you respect them and demand the same respect, you asked for freedom, equalty and brotherhood and now you receive this...

[Dénes]

21inf, why don't you consult Hungarian sources for Kossuth's speeches (and, in general, for Hungarian documents) instead of Rumanian ones? This particular speech should be widely available. Otherwise, you may fall victim to bends and twists resulted of "faulty translation", to say the least, which in turn my impair your fair judgement and unbiased approach to this hot topic you claim you're striving for.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on January 05, 2013 12:00 pm

[21 inf]

By comparison, here you have the proclamation of Simion Bărnuţiu to Romanians, 19th of October 1848, to the Hungarian and Szekler nations from Transylvania:

"...Open your minds, think well. Do you want to unite with us, for the emperor, Fatherland, right and freedom? Look, we open our arms like brothers. Let's forget all what it was and to have a strong bond of union, to gain for you and for us a better future: the last drop of blood will flow for defending your rights, your freedoms, as well as ours.

We beg you once more: dont let pass without use this moment of peace and brotherly union; who knows when it'll come back. For the moment no one is defeated: all of us can have to give his hand, with honor, for the union.

And if you think you cant accept this union, well, let's the flag of war to flutter. ... We are not afraid of war. ...

...let's talk about humanity. As you do, we will do all we can to strenghten us, to weaken our enemy, to obtain victory. ... Let's make the diference between the necesary bad things in the war and the barbarism useless to nobody and are harming the one who is barbarian.

Let's wipe any enemy who atack us weapons in hand, but show love for humans and be generous to all those who's death is using to nobody, whom to spare is making no harm, show mercy to prisoners, defeated, to women, elder and children. ...

Let's avoid useless destruction, as both of our nations want to live in the future in this country, so why to have a deserted home?

In this spirit of humanity we demand our conationals to do. You do the same, be human. ...If we cant unite in the political idea, of right and freedom, at least let's know together the spirit of humanity. Fellow citisens! A last word, we must say it to you. We dont threaten you, we just want you to let know what we think. ..."

From Chidriş, Ioan - Simion Bărnuţiu, Cluj-Napoca, 1998, page 121-122

Simion Bărnuţiu proclamation to Romanians, 21st of October 1848:

"...1. No one to dare to touch any person or it's belongings, regardless of nationality: Romanian, Hungarian, Hebrew or any other nation, because we all have the same rights to life and wealth and we owe the same respect to everybody.
2.The ones who put their weapons down and show that they dont want to fight agains anybody, those must be not harmed, but in contrary, they have to be defended against any harm directed to them or to their wealth.
3.No one to dare to trouble the travelers if they are peacefull, but in contrary, to protect them
4.The Comitee give strict order to all Romanians to listen to the above orders and to obey their chiefs, the prefects, tribunes, centurions, the elders from the villages and all the legal comanders.
5.All the comanders must preserve strict discipline in the ranks, to forbid drunkness and othe excesses, to protect the comunities and the wealth of all people, regardless the rank, noble or not, and if something was stolen, to be returned to the owner. Each village is responsible to the damages made in their comunity.
6.Who is breaking these orders, alone, in groups or even entire villages, it will be judged by the laws of war and severely punished..."

From Chidriş, Ioan - Simion Bărnuţiu, Cluj-Napoca, 1998, page 126

Aidan, you draw as many conclusions as you can and after that we can continue our discussion, if you want.

[Dénes]

Here is what I found after a casual search (true, there are ... in places, so not a full version):

1848. október 10.
Országos Honvédelmi Bizottmány, Magyarország
Az oláh néphez! A magyar nemzet testvéri módon megosztotta az oláhokkal minden szabadságait és nem tartott
meg magának csak egyet sem kizárólag... Az ország kormánya megparancsolja... kik magatokat a bujtogatás által
félrevezettetni engedjétek, hogy nyolc nap alatt mindenki a rend és törvényes engedelmességnek magát alája
vesse... A szabadság, egyenlõség és testvériség szelleme járja át sziveiteket, hogy tiszteletben tartsátok a
törvényt... Béke veletek. Költ Pesten october 10-kén 1848. / Az ország védelmére megbizott országgyûlési
választmány, KOSSUTH Lajos elnök; Idõsb gróf ESZTERHÁZY Mihály bizottmányi tag. – (Budapest) Nyomatott
KOZMA Vazulnál
2 p. 1 fol. – 40 x 25 cm.
A felszólítás részletezi, hogy a közös történelem során hogy küzdött együtt a román és magyar nép, most a felforgató és
bujtogató ellenfél aknamunkája nyomán a Délvidékrõl betört az országba JELLA-CSICS, zendülõkkel és pártütõkkel. A
Honvédelmi Bizottmány figyelmezteti a románokat, ne higgyenek az ellenségnek, maradjanak békeszeretõ, hû fiai közös
ha-zánknak, testvérei a magyaroknak.
(Vö. román nyelvû változata a 2.14.)

13:22 Sign.: ÖNB FL UNG 1848/8/10
2.14.
1848. október 10.
Appel Kötrö Romünj.
Ludovicu KOSSUTH m.p. President : Cont Michail ESZTERHÁZI m.p. Membru Comisiunei / Ön tipariu lii Vaszil Koszma.
2 p. 1 fol. – 39,5 x 25,5 cm.
Nr. 208.
Román nyelven, cirill betûkkel nyomtatott példány (a nyomtatott aláírás latin betûkkel). A 2.13. román változata.

Another source gives the following info:
Kossuth 1848. október 10-én felhívást intézett a románokhoz, amelyet így fogalmaz: „A jobbágyság eltöröltetett a magyarok és az oláhokra nézve, az adó terheit egyenlően hordozza nemes és nem nemes, magyar és oláh, s egyenlőjoggal bír saját dolgainak intézésében, nincs kizárva sem közhivatalból s nyitva áll a becsületes kenyérkeresetnek minden neme előtte is, mint a magyarok előtt...”

21inf, please translate and summarise it.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on January 05, 2013 12:39 pm

[21 inf]

Denes, the proclamation of Kossuth is given by him and thus, the source is not important, as he signed it. Of course, is important to read it in the original languase, as there might be some faulty translation, as I am not a English native speaker, so I'll put also the Romanian text. If you can help with the Hungarian version of the same document, it will be a plus, and I ask you to help just as I am not, also, a native Hungarian speaker. It would be great if we can compare the Romanian and Hungarian versions to see if the containt was altered at translation. Thank you in advance!

So, here is a part of a Romanian language text:

"Altminteri, pe Dumnezeu din ceruri, care apără dreptatea, capetele vinovaţilor vor suferi severitatea neînduplecată a legii. Viteaza noastră armată, care a împrăştiat de curând o hoardă de trădători şi tâlhari, va porni împotriva voastră şi atunci vai de oricare turbulent de trei ori vai de toţi instigatorii. Ar fi fost mai bine să nu vă fi născut, deoarece nimeni nu va avea parte de milă şi indulgenţă. Dar şi până atunci s-a dat ordin poporului maghiar şi secuiesc să se ridice ca o furtună şi să măture gunoiul ingrat care se răscoală împotriva libertăţii patriei sale şi nu se îngrozeşte a deveni ucigaşul mamei şi fraţilor săi. Ungurii şi secuii să se ridice în masă, exterminând pe toţi trădătorii şi rebelii neascultători. Cui i-e dragă viaţa şi ţine la averea sa, să ia aminte acest ultim cuvânt al îndemnului binevoitor, altfel va plăti scump. I se va lua pământul, pentru a fi împărţit între fiii credincioşi ai patriei, iar el va muri în spânzurătoare sau de focul armelor. Păziţi-vă, de aceea, fraţi români, şi nu vă atrageţi urgia pedepsei!".

And let's have the "rules" again, at least from my part. I want to have a normal, civilised discussion, as much as posible based on documents and not to stir feelings in neither part, Romanian or Hungarian. It is a historical debate and if there are some faults in documents, maybe is the time to made them right.

If the discussion will become "hot", I'm out of it with no previous warning.