1848/49 in Transilvania, about those revolutionary years

Aidan, I am a moţ.

This made me curious to discover some aggression in the 8-10 posts preceding this one from January 11.
I only found something funny:

No comments - the matter was already addressed.

21inf, because I read the posts in this topic opened by you, many of them quite interesting, I thought I had in front of me a person who can discuss serious and decent about the controversial aspects of the Transylvanian civil war (1848/49), which haven't been discussed at all so far! I noticed the entire agreement between you and Andreas in the perspective over what happened, perspective which is normal coming from two romanians (or one motz and one romanian whatever ). I noticed that you have proved more availability to dialogue, better mastering the revolution and the civil war issues! What saddens me is that can not exceed the limited vision of the events, bias and irritation when you meet an opposite perspective, which is not only mine but but all those who celebrate on 15 March the Freedom Day! Day which is not bad at all for the other nations knowing that so many other nationalities living in Hungary enjoyed the benefits of the Hungarian Revolution: Armenians, Jews, many Germans, many Slovaks, Serbs and even Romanians! Why not objectively analyze what urged those who joined the Hungarian Cause in the Revolution to take this choice, without being Hungarian? I repeat the question: outside the territory of Transylvania where has been recorded a Romanian armed resistance in 1848/49 against Hungarian Revolution? And if not, what could be the reason? I look forward the answer!

Florin, you know very well that I was subjected to concerted attacks from Andreas especially and also from 21 inf! Perhaps there is no habit of diverging views and it takes time for it! As a citizen of this country too (I have a double citizenship) can have access to a more ample reading possibilities, having access to libraries in Hungary, Austria and Germany developing my perspectives more than I could as a Romanian! What I want to say is that all participating camps to the 1848/49 Revolution and Civil War have committed mistakes contrary to the unilateral perspective encountered so far!

Your input would reflect better your point (even though I got the message) if you would add at the end "...in Romania" or "...in this forum", because we do not have an "unilateral perspective".
We have an Austrian perspective + a Romanian perspective + a Hungarian perspective (the first two being wrong, according to you).
Maybe one day I will discover a Serbian perspective, a Croat perspective or a Slovak perspective.

OK, I did not reply for this reason.
Regarding your message preceding the one I am quoting:

You know much better these events than me. For people like me, can you detail in what way even Romanians enjoyed the benefits of the Hungarian upheaval that was led by Lajos Kossuth ?
Not related to my question, at least something is obvious: the Imperial Court from Vienna played a wonderful "Divide et impera". But their game would not work if the Romanians living in Transylvania in 1848 would not feel that the Austrians were the lesser of the evils.
P.S: Do you know what makes me sad? The White race is now 7 percent of the world's population, it is threatened with extinction in few centuries, but the Whites still continue endless quarrels regarding "who did what" in the past, instead of showing some global unity.

This post has been edited by Florin on January 18, 2013 11:50 pm

Florin, Romanians enjoyed all the rights offered to the citizens of Hungary, except for that of a separate state and nationality! The absence of this two should not have to bother them as long as they could to use their language in their community relations, and the purpose of building a new state, reformed, the state for all national communities was reasonably generous!

I will give an example (and many dozens can be given!) to not speak only theoretically: in 1848 the cities Resicabánya (Resita) and Boksánbánya (Bocsa) although mainly inhabited by Germans declared themselves loyal to the Hungarian Cause and remained until their conquest on the side of the Hungarian Government! The town guards of both cities naturally formed from citizens of this towns have resisted heroically to several assaults of the 13th Border Guard Regiment (Imperial Austrian Army) on October 28th, November 15th and December 18th (with the support of Oravicabánya Honved Battalion). The last assault, also the largest scale one, was on December 24, on Christmas Eve, from the city having been withdrawn the main forces of the Oravicabánya Honved Battalion, the city ​​defenders not exceeding 350 men supported by 4 cannons. The city was captured after heavy fightings held all day long, the defenders losing in battle about 80 men and the attackers over 200! In retaliation the city was plundered and devastated and finally burned (in 1849 it was found that 3/4 of the towns buildings were burned and destroyed!), a number of civilians being killed innocent! In this assault the imperial border guards will receive support from a Romanian militia detachment armed mostly with spears, about 1.000 men strong, raised from Romanian villages near Resicabánya. After the burning of the city, another bane will affect the life of the city residents: a cholera epidemic! Traian Doda, the captain of the 13th Border Guard Regiment (Imperial Austrian Army) who burned Resicabánya have today a monument in the city of Karánsebes and give his name to a high school!
In 1874 the city residents built a big iron cross (in the place where before stood a wooden cross placed there in memory of the defenders of the city!) for the victims and the destructions suffered in december 1848 ("the Herglotz Cross") which is even today a symbol for this city and for the sacrifice of its inhabitants for the Liberty and also for the Cause of the Hungarian Revolution! Revolution who was, as I said, for all citizens of the Hungarian homeland!

The 13th Border Regiment from Caransebeş was raised mainly from Romanians from the area. Some officers and soldiers from this regiment fight with success defending Alba Iulia fortress during the siege, against Hungarian army.

“They [the motzes, moţii] significantly made difficult our siege on Alba Iulia fortress and forced us to maintain a cordon of troops from Ciucea by Huedin, Gilău, Cluj, Turda, Aiud, Alba Iulia, Orăştie toward Deva and from Brad, Vaşcău, toward Oradea, which made busy a great number of our troops, who’s absence was so badly felt in our fight against Russians”

General Czecz János, chief-of-staff of Hungarian Army operating in Transylvania in 1848/1849

http://www.history-cluj.ro/Istorie/cercet/...forma%20web.pdf

Is "Razboiul national din 1848-1849" the new definition of those events from the Rumanian side?

Gen. Dénes

Denes and 21inf, without intention of offending anyone but this designation "Razboiul national..." sound to me as fancy as "Popular Revolution of Horea, Closca and Crisan" or "Great National Uprising antifascist and anti-imperialist"

My opinion is that what happened in 1848-49 in Transylvania was a civil war, tragic for all nations living in Transylvania! I hope we can conclude in this direction!

It cannot be civil war, because it was not fought between members of the same nation for ideological reasons.

Gen. Dénes

Probably this is the opinion of the author, giving the fact that he used this name.

Other authors named the events revolution, others peasant uprising, others "revoluţie burgheză", others peasant revolution, some Romanian revolution. On the other side, some called it reactionary, counter-revolutionary, rebellion, insurgency and many other names. Depends on who write it and how interpreted the events.

In the same manner, the Hungarian events from 1848/49 have diferent names, in Hungarian, Romanian or other languages. Usually in Hungarian books the events are named freedom fight (szabadsagharc - sorry for not using Hungarian diacritics), independence war, war in Hungary, revolution, Hungarian revolution. Depends on the author, it is also called rebellion, insurgency and other names.

About 1941 outbreak of the war against USSR, the Germans called it operation Barbarossa, the Romanians "the campaign against bolshevism" and the Russians "The Great Patriotic War". Others simply named it "The Eastern Campaign".

Denes, I think each reader can agree or disagree all the names or only some of them, depending on his opinions.

A Hungarian patriot would call the Hungarian events freedom fight or independence fight, which is normal and understandable, as he is Hungarian and no one can deny his patriotism.

In the same manner, a Romanian patriot would call the Romanian events a revolution, national war or whatever, which is also normal and understandable, as he is Romanian and no one can deny his patriotism.