Suvorov books, ww-2

The vehicles were needed from the preparation phase, not at some point after the offensive has started.

MMM, you missed the fact that Red Army was facing a more organized force than vice-versa. As for the distances, you make it sound like you are playing too much video games.

I'll reformulate: with what would the Soviets sustain an offensive of 100+ divisions on a several hundred kilometers front in summer 1941? Please stop giving Nomonhan as an example.

The Germans had allocated for operation Barbarossa a total of 577,120 motor vehicles while the entire Red Army had a total of 272,600 trucks in June 1941.

http://books.google.ro/books?id=dcAgT_2uiY...%201941&f=false

This post has been edited by dragos on March 11, 2010 03:18 pm

Well, if things went as Suvorov says Stalin wanted (!!!!), there wouldn't even have been the time and need for a lend-lease act!
PS: @Dragos: let's not fall into what Suvorov describes as a trap (correctly, IMO) and compare all German motorized vehicles with the Soviet trucks!

This post has been edited by MMM on March 11, 2010 04:19 pm

This was not going to happen in a real world. Not at least in the world of 1941.

The German figure for vehicles is not exclusively trucks, but does not include armored cars, half-tracks or motorcycles. Nevertheless, the point is the German had more trucks for Barbarossa than Soviets had for their entire army at that moment. And it was still an insufficient number for the German plan of operations!

Of course, but the German plan of operation was for a surface of... what? How much had they to go in REAL terms, in the terms of the tanks' guaranteed distance?

at the beginning of 1940 the Wehrmacht operated about 120.000 trucks with a capacity greater than 1.5t.
the yearly production during '40-44 averaged between 70.000 and 80.000 with 80% going to the army. which puts the car park of the Wehrmacht in term of trucks in mid '41 at about 215.000 trucks.
that would be less than the RA had.
figures from "Kraftfahrzeuge und Panzer der Reichswehr, Wehrmacht und Bundeswehr", 2003.

it is unclear however, if the figure is wheeled trucks only or if it includes half-track artillery tractors.

The trucks captured from France and other occupied territories in 1940 would add up to this number to a considerable amount.

can't find anything authoritative on french booty trucks used in the german army, but they'd hat to be at least 60.000, if of the german army truck park of 1940 to match the RA.

This post has been edited by dead-cat on March 11, 2010 06:37 pm

From "Trucks of the Wehrmacht" by Reinhard Frank:

Agree with you Victor, in terms of of capacity of all these tanks to destroy each other, on normal engagement ranges. As I checked the soviet 45mm/L46 tank gun could penetrate 35mm steel armor at 1000m, and the czech 37mm Skoda 37mm A3 L/40 vz.34 or P.U.V. vz.37. L/47.8 could penetrate 23-24mm steel armor at 1000m, or 25-27mm steel armor at 1000m with APC projectiles. Source: Jentz, Thomas L: Panzer Truppen Vol 1.
It was indeed enough for both sides to destroy each other at large distances, the advantage in the armor protection of czech production tanks was useless... and agree with the fact that radios and communication was very important and a real advantage for the german crews! But what about reliability of all these tank types? Than what about cross-country capacity? My point is -the Skoda tanks were a real challenge for their crews -not only romanian ones...

So, the Wehrmacht had its own version of "lend-lease act"

B]@Victor [/B]

That comparison is yours not mine, besides the 12th army and jukov 57th corps are similar in terms of men and equipment. Needles to say, it faced the Romanian third army not the german Heer.

During june and july the soviets raised the following divisions :

114,118,127,129,132,134,151,160,162,187,194,196,198,212,214,217,220,226,227,
230,232,234,238,239,242,243,244,245,246,247,248,250,251,252,253,254,256,257,
,258,259,260,261,262,264,266,268,269,270,271,272,279,280,281,282,284,285,286,
287,288,289,292,293,297,299,300,302,303,305,307,309,310,311,312,313,314,316,322,413,415.

I ask a simple question : From were did the officers and NCO came ?

This post has been edited by osutacincizecisidoi on March 12, 2010 08:59 am

@dragos

http://books.google.ro/books?id=dcAgT_2uiY...%201941&f=false

Very good book thanks

The idea - which I still stand for also in august 1944 - is that Ploiesti was within striking distance from the airfields of the newly-acquired Bessarabia; not to mention that, as was seen in 1942 (Caucasus), one cannot really exploit oil from the frontline.
So, videogames or not (I actually used to play strategy games ), the distance from the fronteer to Ploiest's refineries was small; if the Soviets would have had pieces of artillery comparable with what Germans had at Sevastopol - that would have brought Astra Română within striking distance - but that's a mere speculation NOW, after the facts. Hitler, however, was extremely cautious when considering this issue.

If that was not meant as a comparison, then please explain what is the purpose of that particular piece of information and its relation to the current topic. The 3rd Romanian Army was not defending the entire Eastern Front. Needless to say, had the Soviets invaded in July 1941, then they would face in most places the German Heer and Luftwaffe, not the Romanian 3rd Army.

Getting back to the situation of the 3rd Army, it is an interesting what if. One thing is sure though: the 11th German Army and the Luftwaffe Air Corps were a good bolster to the Romanian troops.

Going to the divisions raised by the Soviets in the summer of 1941, I will reply with another question: what makes you think these were anything else than cannon fodder?

I will again quote Glantz (When Titans clashed page 68)

The Red Army's force generation saved the Soviet Union from collapse in 1941, but with the sacrifice of millions of soldiers that went into battle without a real chance of survival. However, it is mistaken to think that these units carried any potential in the advent of a Soviet offenssive.

They didn't. The Germans were the only ones to develop such ressource consuming weapons. The others were more practical.