Suvorov books, ww-2

Who says that tanks have to invade from the north ? What if they come from Cahul ?

Who says that tanks have to invade from the north ? What if they come from Cahul ?

They'd still have a 300 km journey to Bucharest, and they would have to go through Galati and Braila along the way.

Who says that tanks have to invade from the north ? What if they come from Cahul ?

They'd still have a 300 km journey to Bucharest, and they would have to go through Galati and Braila along the way.

And what will stop them ? The 4th Romanian army with divisions equipped at 1916 level ? Let's say 300-400 tanks break the line near Galati and they head straight for Ploiesti and Bucharest while the other surround in massive pincer movement the Iasi and Botosani region, trapping the 11th and 3rd Romanian Army.

If you look at the soviet attack plan, it was meant to charge the pincer through the weaker Romanian armies, just like at Stalingrad. We didn't stop them then and I have no doubts we wouldn't have stopped them either in july 1941 if it were the case.

Let's be serious, in July 1941 the German divisions would have been intact and ready to react to such a move. The Romanian army would have been capable to at least stall the Soviet advance until the German forces came to their assistance.

And even if the Soviets get to Bucharest after many weeks or several months of fighting... then what? What if Bucharest become their "Stalingrad" in the winter of 1941?

?? What isn't real from what I wrote ? The no of divisions ? What exactly are you denying ? That there were over 1200 tanks concentrated against Romania in 2 massive armies ?
That against them there were 21 infantry divisions, most of which were in poor shape with no modern AT equipment ?

"Alleged" ??

To get the answer to this you would need to read Solonin's book who analyzes mechanized corp performance by the hour in the first days of war. There you will learn how and why the Red Army, asked to defend the "soviet paradise" decided to shoot its commanders and commissars ( just like the local population was shooting from every rooftop and church tower at the soviet troops ), drop their equipment and scatter. If this nitpick attracted your attention, you will go buy the book and you'll do yourself and me a favor.

Tanks cant go without infantry support. I mean, they can, but cant do much alone. Situations was entirely different then at Stalingrad.

Soviets in 1941 had mostly some not extraordinary tanks, to not say quite shitty, like T-26 or BT. I dont think there was many T-34 or KV around, not too make a huge difference anyway. Those T-26 and BT was about the same level of our R-2 or R-35.
I dont even know how many they had ready at our borders. Let say they had a big numerical advantage.

But those tanks was still weak, with weak armour that can be destroyied by any gun we had back then, from 30 mm and up (even Molotov cocktails or AT rifles). They needed lots of infantry to follow them, to break thru FNG line, even incomplete how it was. to pass over Danube, Prut, Siret. To fight urban battles, in Galati, Braila, Iasi. I dont even mention Bucharest which will be a nightmaire to them. They wouldnt acheive air supremacy, mostly local air superiority based on number

From how bad Soviets did in battle, at least at the begining of war, i dont see them at all doing too well even in this invasion here. Not in 1941 for sure

They will be unable to control mountain areas where we'll dominate and from where will be always a danger of counterattacks coming from Transilvania. They will lose lots of soldiers and materials, and as i said they will need some 3 million soldiers to achieve a ratio of 3 to 1, usually used for offensive, and i doubt they will use that many on this front.
From how i see the things, they will be able to conquer maybe some parts of the country and then get stuck there, without to achieve more.

They wouldnt be able to occupy key positions, like the Carpathian line, maybe not even Ploiesti, at least not as quickly and easy as Suvorov believe.
And until then Germans will send some help for sure.

I think Suvorov imagined a fairy tale like situation, blowing out of proportion the possibilities of Red Army and the genius of Stalin, and downplaying all the others.
He might be correct saying that Stalin wished to invade Europe, but clearly he fantasize about the ablities, capacities and posibilities of the red army. He just repeat WW 2 propaganda and after war propaganda that was feeded to red army soldiers, to make them believe they was and are invincible and able to roll wherever they wished and crush whatever stayied in front of them.
Which clearly wasnt the case in WW 2 at the begining, and later just with Allies help

This post has been edited by udar on May 30, 2012 06:45 pm

As I see you keep fantasies without any support, PaulC, I see how you avoid the answers (because you can only admit your theory is wrong!)! Is already obvious to everyone that the supposed Soviet attack plan is nonexistent (or if it was one, it was not ready in summer 1941, or doomed to failure!), one of the arguments that I found was the failure to to find any soviet plan of attack by Germans in 1941, in conditions of massive surrender and desertion in the Red Army! If such a plan had existed it would be surely found by the Germans or given to them by soviet POW (divisions commanders at least, if not higher rank officers!) As you say Stalin was not an idiot (stupid) and despite his ruthlessness he understand he can't mess with the Germans! Actually it would not have dared because he have in his face the Winter War so...

I have no ideea from where have you fishing so many? Not even in july 1941 the entire Odessa MR had so many tanks, maybe you count also the armored cars?

Maybe you should diversify your readings to put you more in contact with reality!
Read studies made by German and Romanian staffs about the strengths and weaknesses of various categories of forces in the Red Army (including Mech. Corps and Tank&Moto Divisions), memoirs of romanian and german generals, a.o. maybe you will finally understand that if a plan of attack would have existed it was certainly not put into practice in summer 1941, otherwise the chances that it will lead to same result as Barbarossa would have been immense!

Let's ask Viktor, he must have the data.

As a general rule, take the spoon of salt with any major achievements during the war.

Crush quickly ? Like the 3rd mountain division was crushed in the Caucasus in 1942 ?
Secondly, the 18th army would atack from Bucovina towards Iasi, not across the Carpathians. So tanks were a real threat.

Let's say for each IAR fighter, the VVS losses 5 of their own. By the 2nd day of the war, the VVS still has half its air force and the RRAF is history. Your point is ?

Don't forget that quantity had a quality of its own.

That's one destroyer. How many did they had ? Did we block the Crimeea evacuation right under the nose of the Luftwaffe and the RRAF ?

Imagine all those numbers without the useless losses of 1941 had they attack. In the rout caused by Barbarossa, the soviets lost around 7-8 million men with little or no results. Had they attacked, the 7-8 million would have been thrown without regard to losses against the Wehrmacht the Romanian Army. Which btw, couldn't win the war in the best possible scenario. No you're telling me they would have done ok in the worst possible. I can only smile at this.

Who would have thought that in the war decided by tanks and motorized units, tanks played a big role ?! I thought bicycles decided ww2 !

Around 1500. Odessa + the 18th army.

The germans had 0. We had maybe 100-140 working.

T26, BT5, BT7, T34 and KV1 vs. antique FT17, Renault R2 and R35.

Ah, now you remember!

Soviet divisions were better equipped with artillery and had even T37/T38 infantry tanks. That would have made a difference. Same for the cavalry formations, theirs had tanks !

Yeah, Germany is under attack by 10000 tanks from Lvov protuberance and Bialostock. The first cuts through the hungarians and towards Kracow and spreads in the Pannonian fields, cutting Germany from its southern allies, the 2nd thrust from Bialostock separates army Group Centre and North in Eastern Prussia from Army group south.

Even if the Germans wanted to help us, they needed to air transport their troops over the Red Army hordes.

What a joke. By your standards the soviets should have never won the Eastern conflict.

Let me remind you that they soviets had around 15 to 1 superiority in tanks and 5 to 1 in aircraft, 1 to 1 in men and 3 to 1 in artillery IIRC. At the attack points, the superiority would have been crushing, both in people and in weapons. And our armies were in the path. And shame to us, our forces failed each time under a major attack/counterattack. Odessa, Stalingrad, Caucus, Kuban, Southern Ucraine, Basarabia, Iasi-Chisinau, etc. At the critical moment, the romanian divisions cracked and run. Stand and die wasn't the preferred choice.

This post has been edited by PaulC on May 30, 2012 07:33 pm

You're delusional. Get over it.

German OKH archives are in Podolsk Russia and aren't accessible to historians. I wonder what suprises they held.

Simply math, the one you learned in highschool.
Oddessa military district had 1043 tanks on June 22. On top of this they waited for the 27 mech corp. Against Romania was the 18th army with the 16 mechanized corp. Why don't you add the tanks together so what number you get to ?

From the looks of it, I've read far more books about the Red Army than my esteemed challengers. Let me know when you will at least read the books you so vigorously attempt to trash without having a clue what's inside.

In what sense ? That his plans were coming together? Stalin toasted for Germany's victories and crushing Europe at the May 5 address before the officer academy.

He has Britain and US's back up assured ( material started to flow before the German invasion ) and Europe was waiting for liberation.

I disagree with the ww1 parallel. He didn't want an impasse as during ww1, he wanted the western world to be shaken at the core by Germany. Which is exactly what happened.

This is the first time I hear someone saying Central Europe weather is as bad as winter deep inside Russia. Or that the road and railway network was more or less the same.

So they attacked Finland in November 30, penetrated the Mannhermain line in winter, but they are afraid to attack in Poland on July 6th.

You've already shown complete unfamiliarity with road distances in this part of the world so I doubt you know much about the road and railway network. And yes, winter can be pretty severe in these parts of Europe too. Even in the Romanian plains, let alone the Carpathians.

We were not talking about an attack on Poland, were we? We were talking about the Carpathian region.

13 infantry, 8 tank and 4 motorized divisions. That's so balanced that it hurts : combined forces. They wished to have had this ratios at Stalingrad.

Sir, by this statement you've proven complete ignorance with regards to tanks. Not only weren't T26 ( based on the reliable Vickers light tank ) shitty, but to call the BTs, the best light tanks in the worlds ( years ahead of the Pz1/2 and even early P3 ) with regards to armament, mobility and range, is a shame.

The 45mm gun of the T26 and BT tanks could penetrate any German tank at battle ranges. While T26 was slow, being an infantry tank ( German infantry had no tanks whatsoever ), BTs have mobility parameters which not even today's tanks can math ( hp/t, speed, range ).

Only about as many as Romanian tanks. 1 on 1. In which would you prefer to fight ?

Why not post some figures ? Let' see the "same" level !

That's clear.

Somehow, romanian army recollections of fighting russian tanks don't mention anywhere that they had the proper equipment to fight tanks. On the contrary.

What happened after June 22 is a different discussion.

I wonder how they did it in 1944, must have been some miracle.

The allies would have helped in either case. That's mastery in diplomacy.

Somehow, the war ended in Berlin with the Soviet Union losing 85% of its ammunition industry, main tank plants, steel and coal plants, 70 million inhabitants, 8 million soldiers, 22000 tanks, 79000 guns, 7 million rifles, 15000 planes in the first 3 months of the war. The German Army was destroyed using reservists and leftovers from the great power gathered in June 1941.

But with all those millions armed to the teeth, equipment in place, country intact ,factories too, it couldn't have possibly attacked in 1941.

The Gods of logic must be screaming...

More severe than in Finland and at the Artic circle where soviet divisions penetrated finish defenses ? And since when did Russians became allergic to cold and snow ? Or their equipment ?

Maybe the Siberian divisions were afraid of winter in Carpathians after coming from Urals and Novosibirsk ?

Get real.