Suvorov books, ww-2

Because for a Mountain army made of Caucasians, the Carpathians are small hills, not an obstacle.

Are these Caucasian supermen the same as the guys who went around a swamp because it was an obstacle? That must have been some swamp!
Radu

Are these Caucasian supermen the same as the guys who went around a swamp because it was an obstacle? That must have been some swamp!
Radu

Only the size of Hungary...a small puddle.

Are these Caucasian supermen the same as the guys who went around a swamp because it was an obstacle? That must have been some swamp!
Radu

Only the size of Hungary...a small puddle.

Caucasian supermen are terrified by a swamp the size of Hungary but they are blasé about a mountain range the size of Hungary?

The Russian supermen never parachuted into the Carpathians and never took the passes. That never happened. In reality, they avoided the mountains, just like they avoided that swamp. Reality beats fiction. Saying that they could do it if they wanted to is pure fantasy. It has no basis in reality.

The Russians also planned to land on the moon. They never did. Using your logic, we must assume that even though the Russians never landed on the moon, just because they thought of it means that they could do it any time they wanted, they just chose not to do it.

Radu

The question was never if our tanks were better or worse compared to the russian, since most World War II tank battles demonstrated that other things mattered more... the problem is that most BT-2 and BT-5 fast tanks were in a deplorable state, at least those of the 18th Mech Corps, especially those of the 218th Mech Division! And you claim that this division, with the other two tank divisions (44th and 47th) could cross Muntenia towards Bucharest and Ploiesti... they were divisions in name only, obviously unprepared for such and action as Suvorov imagine...
My source is: Armor Collection nr.1/1996 (Бронеколлекция) Fast Tanks BT-2 and BT-5, page 29-30.

Losing 25 tanks destroyed and many other damaged in a single battle when you have only 119 tanks of all, as the 16th Tank Division have, is a big problem! The other two divisions stayed in reserve for a while, until the 17th july when the 15th Mechanised Division conducted an unsuccessful counterattack on Chisinau...

Are these Caucasian supermen the same as the guys who went around a swamp because it was an obstacle? That must have been some swamp!
Radu

Only the size of Hungary...a small puddle.

Caucasian supermen are terrified by a swamp the size of Hungary but they are blasé about a mountain range the size of Hungary?

The Russian supermen never parachuted into the Carpathians and never took the passes. That never happened. In reality, they avoided the mountains, just like they avoided that swamp. Reality beats fiction. Saying that they could do it if they wanted to is pure fantasy. It has no basis in reality.

The Russians also planned to land on the moon. They never did. Using your logic, we must assume that even though the Russians never landed on the moon, just because they thought of it means that they could do it any time they wanted, they just chose not to do it.

Radu

If that's everything you understood from the detailed soviet war preparation and pre-war scenario analysis & testing ( through war games + real life mountain crossing experiments ), I'm afraid I have nothing more to add.

The question was never if our tanks were better or worse compared to the russian, since most World War II tank battles demonstrated that other things mattered more... the problem is that most BT-2 and BT-5 fast tanks were in a deplorable state, at least those of the 18th Mech Corps, especially those of the 218th Mech Division! And you claim that this division, with the other two tank divisions (44th and 47th) could cross Muntenia towards Bucharest and Ploiesti... they were divisions in name only, obviously unprepared for such and action as Suvorov imagine...
My source is: Armor Collection nr.1/1996 (Бронеколлекция) Fast Tanks BT-2 and BT-5, page 29-30.

Losing 25 tanks destroyed and many other damaged in a single battle when you have only 119 tanks of all, as the 16th Tank Division have, is a big problem! The other two divisions stayed in reserve for a while, until the 17th july when the 15th Mechanised Division conducted an unsuccessful counterattack on Chisinau...

Where does it say deplorable state ? What does deplorable mean ? How can a mechanized corp, even incomplete, 3x the size of its most likely counterpart ( 1st Romanian armored division which was being formed at the time - talk about experience and training ) be worthless ?

What forces were there to stop it ? Name the units, dislocation and size.

This post has been edited by PaulC on July 17, 2012 05:08 am

Are these Caucasian supermen the same as the guys who went around a swamp because it was an obstacle? That must have been some swamp!
Radu

Only the size of Hungary...a small puddle.

Caucasian supermen are terrified by a swamp the size of Hungary but they are blasé about a mountain range the size of Hungary?

The Russian supermen never parachuted into the Carpathians and never took the passes. That never happened. In reality, they avoided the mountains, just like they avoided that swamp. Reality beats fiction. Saying that they could do it if they wanted to is pure fantasy. It has no basis in reality.

The Russians also planned to land on the moon. They never did. Using your logic, we must assume that even though the Russians never landed on the moon, just because they thought of it means that they could do it any time they wanted, they just chose not to do it.

Radu

If that's everything you understood from the detailed soviet war preparation and pre-war scenario analysis & testing ( through war games + real life mountain crossing experiments ), I'm afraid I have nothing more to add.

PaulC,
I was talking about events that DID happen. You are talking about evens that DID NOT happen. One of us is talking about verifyable historical facts (the Russians went around the mountains) and one of us is talking about unverifyable possible plans that never took place (the Russians could have smashed through the mountains). One is fact the other is fiction. One happened, the other did not.

You know that speech in "On the Waterfront"? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QsNXd57Ppw...be_gdata_player

Every time Marlon says "I could have..." he lists things that he is not. In other words every time he says "I could have..." he lists the many ways in which he is a loser. So, in the same way, every time you say "the Russians could have taken the mountains" whereas in reality they did not "take the mountains", you are NOT praising the Mighty Russian Army, you are listing their failures. It would have been an impressive "succes" if they did "take the mountains" but despite their extensive preparations and impressive wargames, they simply avoided the mountains and went around them. The Russians could have had class. The Russians could have been a contender. the Russians could have been somebody. But instead they went around. So, please, stop embarassing yourself and the Mighty Russian Army.

I said all I had to say.
Radu

Are these Caucasian supermen the same as the guys who went around a swamp because it was an obstacle? That must have been some swamp!
Radu

Only the size of Hungary...a small puddle.

Caucasian supermen are terrified by a swamp the size of Hungary but they are blasé about a mountain range the size of Hungary?

The Russian supermen never parachuted into the Carpathians and never took the passes. That never happened. In reality, they avoided the mountains, just like they avoided that swamp. Reality beats fiction. Saying that they could do it if they wanted to is pure fantasy. It has no basis in reality.

The Russians also planned to land on the moon. They never did. Using your logic, we must assume that even though the Russians never landed on the moon, just because they thought of it means that they could do it any time they wanted, they just chose not to do it.

Radu

If that's everything you understood from the detailed soviet war preparation and pre-war scenario analysis & testing ( through war games + real life mountain crossing experiments ), I'm afraid I have nothing more to add.

PaulC,
I was talking about events that DID happen. You are talking about evens that DID NOT happen. One of us is talking about verifyable historical facts (the Russians went around the mountains) and one of us is talking about unverifyable possible plans that never took place (the Russians could have smashed through the mountains). One is fact the other is fiction. One happened, the other did not.

You know that speech in "On the Waterfront"? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QsNXd57Ppw...be_gdata_player

Every time Marlon says "I could have..." he lists things that he is not. In other words every time he says "I could have..." he lists the many ways in which he is a loser. So, in the same way, every time you say "the Russians could have taken the mountains" whereas in reality they did not "take the mountains", you are NOT praising the Mighty Russian Army, you are listing their failures. It would have been an impressive "succes" if they did "take the mountains" but despite their extensive preparations and impressive wargames, they simply avoided the mountains and went around them. The Russians could have had class. The Russians could have been a contender. the Russians could have been somebody. But instead they went around. So, please, stop embarassing yourself and the Mighty Russian Army.

I said all I had to say.
Radu

After what mountains did they went around in 1941 ? You've lost me.

This post has been edited by PaulC on July 17, 2012 08:00 am

Having those troops is one thing. Being able to use them as you say (or Rezun fantasies) is another thing

Romanian Mountain Corp moved toward frontier positions in early May, meaning in positions North of Carlibaba, Moldova Sulita, Argel, Sucevita etc. etc. This positions are in mountains not far from the frontier with USSR.
They moved at night and occupied those new positions until next morning (source is "Epopeea Vanatorilor de Munte")

German paratroopers in Crete didnt land in any mountains. They was droped in flat areas near airports or coastal towns. After they occupied the main airport there was bring in mountain troops by transport airplanes or gliders. Those troops then get in action in the mountains.
German paratroopers suffered however heavy loses and was never used again in large scale launchings.

Another interesting thing you seem unaware, there wasnt anytime any large scale launching of paratroopers in mountain areas. Nobody ever did that, then or now.

First, allow me an advice, stop think that Suvorov is right in anything and everything. This will give you a more realistic view of things.

The fact that soviets start forming mountain hunters divisions in 1940 isnt too impressive. We have them since 1916, so yes, ours was more experienced (including war experience from WW 1), prepared and trained for fight in such enviroment. And obviously know much better the area. Sure, those 5 divisions might pose a problem for our 4, but based on combat records during the war, i think we'll prevail. Actually the Mountain Corp eliberated Bucovina in 10 days.

Its enough to see the combat records of them, with one mountain hunter division reaching the farthest point conquered by Axis in East, pushing its way betwen 2 soviet divisions in Caucasus mountains and conquering Nalcik, somehwere in today Chechnia i believe.
Or look at the medals they received, what Mainstein said about them and how soviets acted against them after the war (pushing the things so they be dissolved and eliminated from Romanian Army)

Gosh, there wasnt any crippled VVS at Odessa. You should read what Solonin said, the VVS there was quite OK, and enjoyed a large numerical superiority. Its just that didnt get too much in fights, because wasnt quite prepared. Sure, our air force was smaller, and didnt had back then a ground attack plane (like German Stukas). Thats why they didnt managed to control the skies and help the ground troops as they wanted.

VVS and soviet AA defence in that area was obviously strong, and our small air force wasnt able to overhelm them. However, i wouldnt said they was no match for VVS. VVS, even enjoying a large numerical superiority, wasnt able to clear the skies from our air force or to have a significant impact on ground war there, and they did had too important losses as well.
As Solonin said, VVS didnt playied a significant role in WW 2, not near as tanks, infantry or artilery.
Even if VVS corp facing us back then was one of the strongest and less affected by Axis assault, they wasnt able to mount any significant attacks. It was a failed attempt to bomb Ploiesti area, or some small other incursions, like that against Constanta that made famous Agarici (who shot down back then 3 soviet aircrafts i think).

I really doubt they would be able to mount a multiple air assault on several airports, command centers, bridges, refineries and so on. I really doubt that they will be able to do that again and again, regardless of losses (especially as the Germans will send for sure more planes to protect Ploiesti, either gived to us or with their own pilots).

Remember we fight too against a much better prepared air force (better then VVS and our Air Force), US Air Force, which for 2 years sended hundered and hundred of heavy bombers (of which soviets had none) and hundreds of fighters (like P-51 Mustang or P-38 Lightning) and they didnt managed to destroy either the refineries either our air force (sure, they did quite some important damages, but nothing like a total loss). Not to mention that they did suffered big losses themselves, with Ploiesti area being called "the graveyard of bombers"

And that in a period when we fight in the same time against VVS and against USAF. Sure, not alone, but with Germans too, however Germans made at most half of air forces here i believe

What on Earth are you talking about. Pavlov and Kuznetsov fronts crossing Dniester from the west? I think you dont understand what Solonin said, about those "war games" playied by Stavka.
They (red army, called "easterners" in that game) had two offensive actions, which supposedly ended with the conquering of Poland, Slovakia, big part of Hungary and large part of Romania, Romania who was to be attacked from west (thus the conquering of Timisoara or even Craiova). And two defensive actions, one stoping a counterattack in what is today western/southwestern Ukraine and another one against so called "westerners" (meaning German and Romanian armies, their "shock troops" how was called in that war game) who forced the Dniester (so recovering Bessarabia in the process) and was to be encircled.
I really dont think that they mean some enemy armies forced the cross of Dniester springs, this is laughable.
This variants contradict as well Suvorov ideas with Soviet super armies ready to invade Romania. I think Andreas presented more about their tanks and preparation, and their combat proven when they faced the Romanian and German armies crossing the Prut (and then even the Dniester) show they wasnt quite the "strongest army in the world").

The main thrust of red army was to be in Poland, then Cechoslovakia and Hungary with an extend in Romanian "west fields", using the open lands and flat areas much better suited for their large amount of tanks and mechanized troops.

This will cut the transport routes of oil, from Romania to Germany, will severe the Germany from Romania (and Bulgaria). They expected counterattacks coming from here in an attempt to flank them from south, so they prepared to block this action, as their main offensive forces and actions was focused in Poland and Hungary, avoiding precisely the hard points as Carpathians, Danube Delta and FNG line.

Cutting off the transport lines of oil in west of Romania was their main purpose, not occupying Romania with an assault from east, which would had so many problems.

Sure, Rezun can fantasize about "strongest army in the world" and so on, can base his ideas on numbers (as probably Stalin and his gang do to) but reality show a different development of things

In the same time Germans will switch to war economy in 1941, not in late 1943, as they, contrary to USSR, didnt put their industry and economy working just for war until very late. As well, USSR received almost 12,000 tanks and AFV through Lend Lease (this wouldnt happened then) and Allied bombardments wouldnt happened anymore either. Those destroyied 10 % of Germany industrial base and production in 1943 and 40% in 1944.
As well, the fact that soviets massed lots of troops to cut Romania from Germany doesnt mean automatically they will have success on that.

Well, why do you think Stalin helped Hitler at first? Precisely to break a possible "capitalist alliance" formed against USSR.
Why do you think Stalin retrieved forces from Siberia just after he was sure the Japanese will not attack there again. Remember that guy, Richard Sorge?
Japan keep the idea of attacking USSR until 1943 actually, when the war in Pacific and American advance there make them to finally abandon the idea of an invasion in Mongolia/Siberia and focus just against the Americans.

About the defeat at Halhin-Gol, remember i posted a while ago what Japanese officers thought about it, and how they (still) saw the Russians? It wasnt any detterent for them and dont even change their perception about Russians

I just quoted him, couple posts above or so. Just look where i posted some links to his website. The plan was for 1942, but was hurried up for 1941 because the events in west and in Balkans (surprising for the soviets), and the Wehrmacht turning east much sooner then Stalin expected.
This mean red army was caught in the middle of its preparations

Yes, as i said it was prepared as being equiped with weapons and war materials. Wasnt prepared as training, morale and organization.
The losses (not just in first year, but through entire war period) speaks for themselves.
And as Solonin said this wasnt the blame of weaponry or equipment or German/Axis "first strike" (even after that "first strike" Red Army enjoyied a big superiority in number of all categories, and even in quality of some of weapon categories). It was the blame of training, morale, organization and combat abilities of Red Army, who turned in a "crowd", and run or surrendered in mass.
They wasnt ready for a war and they didnt like much Stalin and his gang either. It was a combination of factors, as Germans own mistakes and weaknesses (from that stupid idea with "supermen" vs "subhumans" who turned many people in USSR against them and in Stalin camp, to some rigidity in strategy) to Allied involvement who turned the tide.

This post has been edited by udar on July 17, 2012 08:03 am

Russia always had quantity. Today Russia has 23,000 tanks. That is 3 times more than the combined number of tanks of France, Germany and the US! Does it mean anything?

Would there really be no Panzer divisions without Romanian oil?

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Production...w-materials.htm

You can see how in 1942 oil imports dropped and synthetic oil production grew.

Anyway, if the soviets massed that staggering force and were determined to cut Romania from Germany, and cutting Romania from Germany would have turned Panzer divisions into tank-less infantry, why didn't the Soviets attack after June 22, 1941?

PaulC,
I think that you were "lost" from the very beginning. As I said to you a few times already, I am talking about the map you posted. That map shows that the bulk of the Russian army went over the North, around the Carpathians. Your map! I am talking about what happened when the Russians actually came this way. You are talking about stuff that never happened. If you fail to see this point, I wonder what other points you fail to see!
Radu

PaulC,
I think that you were "lost" from the very beginning. As I said to you a few times already, I am talking about the map you posted. That map shows that the bulk of the Russian army went over the North, around the Carpathians. Your map! I am talking about what happened when the Russians actually came this way. You are talking about stuff that never happened. If you fail to see this point, I wonder what other points you fail to see!
Radu

"The bulk of the Russian Army went over to the North around the Carpathians", that's like discovering the sky is blue.

What's your point ? Why should the bulk go across the Carpathians ? What objectives were across the Carpathians ?

Against Romania you had the Southern Front with the 9th and 18th armies. Around Lvov was the bulk of the Red Army in the Southwestern front. From that front only the 12th army had to go across the Carpathians.

You're doing nothing more but putting a false hypothesis and constructing a logical fallacy from that.

And your point about what happened when the Russians came this way, in 1944, is totally irrelevant. Just as with romanian mountain troops in the Caucasus. The strategic situation back then was totally different from 1941. And even then , the bulk was in Poland, with small forces coming in Romania.

Of course I fail to see points where there aren't any.

This post has been edited by PaulC on July 17, 2012 10:24 am

If I heard those 23000 are deploying at Ucraine and Belarus's borders, I'd be worried.

Yes. The German army lacked the fuel for sustained operations. Even in 1943, the highest year of internal production and maximum imports, the Panzer Divisions were running on a ratio. They had to evaluate if the objective was worth taking.

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Production...w-materials.htm

You can see how in 1942 oil imports dropped and synthetic oil production grew.

Cut the imports ( Soviet Union + Romania ) and you're down to roughly 5 million. The problem is the Wehrmacht used 5 million in 1941 and 4.5 million in 1942.

You either supply the Wehrmacht or the european economy. A lose/lose situation. Without fuel the Wehrmacht will be crippled. But if we supply the Wehrmacht the European economy is badly affected.

FYI, the German planned with Barbarossa a 3 month campaign having fuel for 2 months which ran out in 1.5 months. If you're not aware, a 3 week stop was inserted in the planning in August to be able to recover fuel stocks.
That's why the German Army stopped its advance in august.

Imagine the reverse : the Red Army attacks. They conquer/destroy the Ploiesti oil fields and cut the supply to Germany.
The German army is fighting desperately in Poland. For a moment it look like they might stop the soviet behemoth : but after 30-45 days of desperate maneuvering, trying to use their tactical superiority to compensate for numbers they start to run out of fuel. But the Red Army doesn't stop the tempo, they have the Baku oilfields producing 30+ million tons of oil per year.

That's the end.

They did not receive the order for the Southern front. They waited passive to be encircled by the Panzer Group 1 which fall in the back of the Southern front.

BINGO!

I am glad you finally agree!

I stated a fact in reply to Andreas. You took that as a personal challenge and created two pages of rubbish about paratroop supermen. Incidentally, if there was nothing beyond the Carpathians worth fighting for, then why would the Russians land gliders full of parattroops into meadows and then take the passes? Why? You were very forceful in pushing that argument. Now it turns out that you never even believe that there was a point in it. Strange!

There was never an argument. You created one out of nothing!

Radu