Suvorov books, ww-2

They didn't receive the order? And doesn't that sound utterly bizarre considering that your hypothesis is that the Soviets were preparing to attack in July, that they had massive superiority in this sector and were more than aware of the crippling blow they would give to the Germans with a strike towards Ploiesti? Not to mention your emphasis that Ploiesti was just a stone's-throw away from the large Soviets units massed there?

Nice twist, but you don't escape that easily by throwing back the dead cat. It's yours, enjoy it.

There wasn't something worthwhile for the bulk of the Soviet forces ( your absurd claim - the bulk avoided the Carpathians, remember ? ) , but there was something worthwhile for the Southern Front. ( 18th and 9th army, 2 mechanized corps, 1 reserve and 1 airborne corp ). That's why they were deployed in the first place in Basarabia and Bukovina. It's not my fault you can't grasp the entire picture.



Look again, maybe you'll see paratroopers in Maramures ( undefended ) and around Brasov ( main link between Transylvania and Muntenia, the route for the oil together with the Danube )

Secondly, the 18th army had the task to cross the Carpathians and join with the 12th army forces coming from Satu Mare.

The task was feasible and the soviet forces had the means to achieve that.

They didn't receive the order? And doesn't that sound utterly bizarre considering that your hypothesis is that the Soviets were preparing to attack in July, that they had massive superiority in this sector and were more than aware of the crippling blow they would give to the Germans with a strike towards Ploiesti? Not to mention your emphasis that Ploiesti was just a stone's-throw away from the large Soviets units massed there?

By early July, when the Soviet deployment would have been complete , Panzer Group 1 was racing south-east to close the trap on the Lvov grouping and the Southern front.
At the same time, the western front crumbled and the road to Moscow was open.
They thought it's better to withdraw in the south and reinforce the Kiev and Smolensk regions.

But I agree in principle with your hypothesis : it would have been an interesting scenario for the Southern Front to strike as planned even if the deployment wasn't complete in June 22-July 2 period. In hindsight it make sense. At the time, the Red Army command ignored this possibility.

It is interesting because on other fronts they ordered the Southwestern and Western fronts to advance to their jump off positions ( Directive 3rd , evening June 22 ). But if you read Solonin's book, it becomes clear that in the confusion, this directive spell the death of those armies.

They completely lacked defense plans. So they improvised on the spot. But with an enemy that is master of tactical agility, that was a disaster. They were simply out flanked, outpaced and in total operational chaos.

There is no "twist" and no "dead cat".

You do not have to be a maths genius to count the "number of arrows".
As I said THE BULK (majority, larger number, bigger number of troops and equipment, the "opposiute of little") went to the North.

That was my point. At this stage I feel like I should risk a one-week ban and tell you what I really think.

Radu

There is no "twist" and no "dead cat".

You do not have to be a maths genius to count the "number of arrows".
As I said THE BULK (majority, larger number, bigger number of troops and equipment, the "opposiute of little") went to the North.

That was my point. At this stage I feel like I should risk a one-week ban and tell you what I really think.

Radu

While I don't want you to get ban , please reconcile the above statement with your prior post :

About the map posted I want to ask some things: the operational general idea related to Romania looks similar to that conducted in 1944, but by far the most spectacular and important offensive action is that in north-eastern Hungary, that should be analyzed more carefully! This because the Hungarian troops dislocated in the area seem very fragile (according to the map!) protected of course by a mountain chain but still weak compared to the soviet forces... I do not know the real situation in the field but it is interesting to find out how prepared was the soviet 12th Army (that was the agressor isn't it?) for such a massive offensive deep inside Hungary and even Romania!

There is no "twist" and no "dead cat".

You do not have to be a maths genius to count the "number of arrows".
As I said THE BULK (majority, larger number, bigger number of troops and equipment, the "opposiute of little") went to the North.

That was my point. At this stage I feel like I should risk a one-week ban and tell you what I really think.

Radu

While I don't want you to get ban , please reconcile the above statement with your prior post :

There is nothing to reconcile.
My original statement that the bulk of the Russian army preferred to go to the North around the mountains still stands and it was also confirmed by you when you stated "The bulk of the Russian Army went over to the North around the Carpathians", that's like discovering the sky is blue. So... YOU AGREE?

Count the arrows! Count how many arrows went to the North of the Carpathians and how many came South of the Cartpathians. "Bulk" means "more". More of the Russian Army went around the mountains. Ergo "The bulk of the Russian Army went North".

That is all I said. It is a historic fact proven by the map you posted (twice already). It is beyond comprehension why you keep starting fights over something that is just a fact and YOU AGREE WITH! You need to stop looking for fights. You are the only one who sees this thing (that YOU AGREE WITH anyway!) as a reason for a fight!

Radu

Let's see what the 12th army had as OOB in June 22 1941.

- 13th infantry corps ( 44, 58, 192 infantry divisions )
- 17th infantry corps ( 60, 69 mountain divisions and 164 infantry division )
- 16th mechanized corp ( 15, 39 tank divisions, 240 motorized infantry division, 19th independent motorcycle infantry regiment )
- 3 fortified battalions
- 4 independent artillery regiments
- 2 AAA battalions
- 1 AT brigade
- 4 NKVD regiments


The 16 mech corp had a total of 680 tanks ( 75 T28, 360 BT, 245 T26 )
-347 tanks in the 15th TD
-209 tanks in the 39 TD
-112 in the 240 motorized division


Against it, the opposition was the mobile Carpathian corp of the Hungarian army 2 infantry brigades and 1 mechanized corp. 40000 men and 150 tanks ( 65 Italian L3 and 95 indigenous Toldi 1 ).

This post has been edited by PaulC on July 17, 2012 02:25 pm

I finally looked closer to that map (not sure how correct is however).
From what its show up there, the "famous" 12-th Army (that one with mountain troops added) was geared toward Hungary, and those troops was to be used to clear the Carpathian passes in what is today southwestern Ukraine to Hungary, not the Oriental Carpathians in Moldova.
So, they allow the tanks and mechanized units to rush toward Budapest and cut the logistic lines betwen Germany and Romania. They totally avoided the area where our Mountain Corp was located

What its show up related with Romania, is kinda unrealistic, seeing what actually happened, is in category of that "sweet dreams" mentioned by Solonin. Or maybe that plan is spread on few months or so, and i didnt saw that. And no, i am not saying that we'll beat the Red Army alone, or resist here indefinitely or something, i just point out the fantasies from that map

I mean, they will drop paratroopers near Ploiesti? .
They thought is just that simple? They should ask USAF how "simple" was to bomb the place (and they did that usually from high altitude as the low/medium flights ended in disasters), let alone launching paratroopers .
In fact VVS had an attempt to bomb the Ploiesti area too those days, which was a failure and had no consequences for refineries.

Then, the 18-th Tank Army Corp will pass through Danube Delta? How would they do that, with hovering tanks? And Soviet Navy will be able to land Marines in Dobrogea?
I mean, Soviet Navy had just an attempt to come closer and attack Constanta (meaning just battle ships alone, without a bunch of landing ships) and they didnt do any damage, however end up losing the destroyer Moskva in the process. They never attempt such actions anymore. So, they really thought can defeat Romanian Navy, the mines barrages, coastal artilery and air forces (see again the exampe with Agarici here) and make a succesfull landing of large troops? The difference between what they was able to do vs. what they planned to do is quite big.

This post has been edited by udar on July 17, 2012 02:25 pm

I think we have a problem with the 12th Army and I say this because the way they (RKKA General Staff) have positioned she could be used offensively against Romania from Northern Bukovina (and stay in defence north of Transcarpathian Region) OR used for a offensive action in Transcarpathian Region against the Hungarian 8th Corps and stay in defence in Northern Bukovina! It's so clear now, the 18th Army who started to be formed in Northern Bukovina could possibly receive an offensive task against Romania, but never the 12th Army!

After me the deplorable state of combat equipment is or occure when you abandon your armor in deposits or repair centres immediately after your units was redeployed in other sector of front... after you lost already an important part of your vehicles! That's what I called a deplorable state of the combat equipment! That's happen with the 218th Mechanized Division, or the "ghost division" the 47th Tank Division who had 15 BT-5 and 7 T-26 light tanks and also 42 light tankettes T-27. Can you imagine this as a Tank Division? Crossing trough fighting Muntenia towards Ploiesti? Be serious, something like this is just unimaginable!

Against Romania we have the 9th and the 18th armies. The 12th had the task to penetrate the Carpathians towards the Pannonian fields. From there it could advance south towards Budapests, Szeged, Belgrad and towards Transylvania.
The forces opposing it where the Hungarian army.

I have serious doubts the Hungarian army would have fought the soviets. After reading about Soviet-Hungarian cooperation throughout the inter-war, during the war and immediately after the war ( the horthyst organization of Transylvania was supported by the Soviets and left in place ), I believe Hungary would quickly switch sides and ally with the soviets. If the Hungarian Soviet republic of 1919 failed to exist for more than 6 months, now they had the chance to make it eternal in the Union. Add territorial concessions from the neighbors and you have a perfect recipe for a soviet quick advance in the hear of Europe.

First of all, equipment isn't loaded in trains for redeployment if it's not in working condition. Secondly, I haven't seen any information from you on the deplorable state. All you've shown was that only 24 out of the 36 T27 tankettes were operational. 66% in 1941 is not bad for a vehicle produced from 1931 to 1933. Even so, their reputation was of being simple and reliable.

The Spanish had over 100 T26s tanks captured from the Republicans and kept into service until 1954 . The T26s the finish captured in the war were kept into service up until 1961 . With no service manuals and no spare parts.

T26 and BT tanks had exceptional operational life characteristics for their time. They were simple and reliable.

Solonin proved that average availability of the tanks in the 5 western sectors was around 87%. That's exceptional. And I seriously doubt all the bad tanks pilled up in the 18th mech corp.

As a a 47th ghost division, the German tank divisions in their last drive to Moscow had 20-30 tanks each and they've reached the outskirts of the capital. While it sounds horrendous, next the the 47th tank division was the 44th and next to it the 218 mechanized.
Individually, they could be seen as poor, but they had a unified command and acted as a whole. Secondly, a units is weak or strong only depending on the enemy.

So when you say the 18 mech corp was weak, add also the likely opposition. Just to have a comparison.

What more, the 18th mech didn't act alone. It's pair unit was the 14th infantry corp : consisted of 25 th and 51 th Infantry Division, 265 th and 685 th corps artillery regiments, the 26th separate anti-aircraft artillery battalion, the 76th separate battalion, and the 82nd Battalion. On June 1, 1941 there were 472 guns and mortars (field - 224, antitank - 108, AA - 8, mortars - 132 ), 16 amphibious tanks T-37, 25 armored vehicles.
Together they were a powerful unit that dwarfed anything across the border. And having 30 amphibious tanks meant they could force a crossing of the Danube or the Prut. It's one thing to send in the 1st wave dingie boats like the Germans and Romanians did or 30 tanks.


And since you forced me to look again at the forces directed against Romania an often overlooked threat was the Soviet 2nd Cavalry corp. It consisted of: two famous Civil War cavalry divisions, a separate division of communications, the 3rd Division. The body had two tank regiments (129 BT), 27 armored vehicles, 32 AA guns , 20 AT guns, 64 field-caliber 76-152 mm, 12 mm mortars 82-120.
This cavalry corp was comparable to a German Panzer Division by the number of tanks and field guns.

This post has been edited by PaulC on July 18, 2012 11:01 am

in my opinion the 9th soviet Army could become an unimaginable strong army, with it's 2 or 3 mechanized corps, 2 cavalry corps, 1 airborne corps and 3 or 4 infantry corps... but not in july 1941... I am not saying that he could not attack with what he had but she wasn't complete and ready for an attack... I am saying this knowing that he's 11th TD had to receive soon equipment for a tank battalion T-34 tanks -and giving some of his older equipment T-26 tanks as I read to the 16th TD... This was planned for july 1941 if I remember well... can't imagine that she could be ready for an attack immediatly after she received his new tanks... in reality the tanks will arrive to another Mechanized Corps in central Ukraine to fight the germans...

No army is ever complete. That doesn't mean it can't attack. No german Panzer division ever had the mandatory number of tanks, trucks, guns. Same for infantry or motorized. You wage war with what you have.
And all this complete/ready stuff is totally relative. Why ? Because you're ready in relation with the enemy. If regulation state your mechanized corp should have 1031 tanks and you have 500, you're not ready paper wise, but if the enemy has 100, does it matter? You're superiority is imense.

Secondly, no army can ever be ready with the new equipment. That's ok if you have an army like Luxembourg, with 2000 people. But if you're the Soviet Union, with 5 million active army and 25 000 tanks, you're never up to date.
In 1940 you have the T34 entering production. You start to update the mechanized corp. You didn't finish to update even a few that T34/85 appears. You start again , but T44, than T55, T62,etc... Reequipping is a never ending process. If you wait until the entire army has the latest stuff, you'll never be able to do anything.

All that matters is your strength vs. the enemy.

And the Soviet Union mobilization plan was simply outstanding in simplicity and genius : it involved echelons of armies. Nobody else had something similar. They are like the teeth of the shark : you have the first row of teeth, the largest and sharpest, than a 2nd smaller one, than a 3rd one, a 4th one barely seen. As teeth are lost in action, the rows are replaced.

The soviet 1st echelon with 170 divisions and around 14000 tanks was near the border. The 2nd echelon with 77 divisions and some 4000 tanks was being transferred in the western sectors. The 3rd echelon consisted of NKVD elite units lavishly equipped.

Had the soviet Union attacked probably the 1st echelon would have been lost destroying the Wehrmacht and their allies. But that was exactly its role. The 2nd echelon was there to pick up and continue the tempo.
But on the other side, after the 1st echelon there was nothing. The entire OKH reserve was 14 infantry and 1 mechanized division.

This system saved the Soviet Union. When the Germans attacked they destroyed in huge pincer movements the 1st echelon who was a sitting duck from a defensive POV. That's why Halder exclaimed " we've destroyed the Red Army , the war is won " 2 weeks after the attack. But the Wehrmacht had no idea of the 2nd echelon, nor the 3rd.

Near Kiev and in Southern Ukraine the 2nd echelon is thrown into combat to Wehrmacht's surprise. The exhausted German armies manages to destroy the 2nd echelon too. But Stalin mobilized 11,6 million men in June 22- Aug 1941.
Another 160 divisions are thrown at Smolensk, 100 in Ukraine. Halder is exasperated : we assumed 200 divisions, but we destroyed 360 until now ( Aug. 1941 ).

But the system works, new rounds of teeth are thrown into combat replacing the destroyed ones. Another 100 divisions appear around Moscow. And the Wehrmacht crumbled. The last straw broke the camel's back. Lacking reserves, having received 30-40% replacements for the losses suffered, the Wehrmacht couldn't win such a war. With all the possible advantages in the world : surprise, having destroyed the 1st Red Army echelon for minimal losses, having captured huge amounts of soviet fuel, supplies, trucks, ammunition, they still lost. In the best possible scenario, they've lost.

Imagine now the reverse, the worst possible scenario : the soviets attack. The huge first echelons slams into the Wehrmacht and the Romanian Army. The Wehrmacht is shocked, their units are placed in suicidal positions, totally inadequate for defense. Their supplies, fuel, ammunition are near the troops or in rail carriages. These are quickly captured or destroyed. The soviet artillery based on the lessons of Finland is talking in nuclear terms : kilotons per km of front line.

The tremendous pressure of the mechanized corps forces slices through the German defense. Once free in the back, they extend their columns like an octopus uses its tentacles to destroy the victim. The 2nd echelons builds up pressure. The 3rd is cleansing the new territories from anti-soviet elements : teachers, priests, intellectuals, burgeois. Tens of new soviet armies are thrown into the battle. The soviet industry was outproducing the German one by 3-4x in any field.

Looking at the grand scheme nothing could stop them.

As for the 9th army, compared to the forces in Romania it was a giant. This army was supposed to be ready for attack on July 6. Receiving a battalion or two of tanks was peanuts considering the mass strength. It's like a 700kg bear vs. a wolf and the bear isn't ready until it gets to 750kg.

This post has been edited by PaulC on July 18, 2012 12:07 pm

From this perspective the picture is impressive and I believe feasible up to a point! What remains unknown is if the Soviet army had arrived in Germany what would happen? In 1941 the German population still worshiped Hitler, and having behind such a large population hostile to your army and military administration would create huge problems to the communist occupants... as many units of the NKVD you might had germans (organized by the nazi secret structures) wouold have been big trouble for red occupants! Soviets liquidated the anti-Soviet resistance movements in Ukraine, Baltics, a.o. after many years, in 1946 even 1947, I'll be curious what might have happened in Germany! I am convinced that even the British not to say Americans would have supported (if not directly intervened) to help the resistance movements, be them even nazi (remember what happened after 1945)... surely USSR will have been in big trouble. But we're talking here about a fiction of the fiction. It also would be interesting to see the western occupied nations (French, Dutch, Danish a.o.) reaction to the red army units advancing to Atlantic... and surely the British reaction!

This post has been edited by aidan zea on July 18, 2012 12:27 pm

PaulC, I recommend you that at least on issues that do not know to be more to be more cautious in your statements! Without being suspected by anyone in this forum as having any sympathy on hungarian army in WWII, I must be fair and admit that at least the hungarian Fast Moving Corps (who was positioned behind the VIII Corps) (who had 81 x 38M Toldi I light tanks, 48 x 39M Csaba armored cars and 60 x 35M Ansaldo tankettes) fought well (I mean in summer 1941), and there were no cases of hesitations or positions abandon or things like that... quite the contrary! So to speculate on this theme is not right because we don't have enough elements...

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on July 18, 2012 03:48 pm