Summer uniforms in winter fights

A few months ago I ran into one of my grandparents's godsons ("fin") at a dinner. Inevitably, the conversation steered towards WWII.

Anyway, this gentleman was a 2nd lieutenant in '44-'45 during the fights in Czechoslovakia.
He recalled how bitterly cold it was that winter, and how they were fighting a lot in forests and on mountains.

What surprised me is that he said that they weren't issued winter coats, and he was thankful for this. I asked him why he was happy about it, and he said that if he had been wearing a jacket, he would have fallen asleep and frozen to death.

Apparently (according to him), the troops - well, at least SOME troops - were not issued winter clothing so that they don't fall asleep. The cold kept them awake and more alert.

Can anyone confirm or deny this? I think he fought in Mochiulski's unit and went all the way past Banska-Bystrica (sorry for the spelling).

For what I know, the lack of winter cloathing for the troops was due to negligence and poor organising of the supplies. It was a pretty common problem, few units were 100% properly supplied.

As for the idea that being cold the troops will be sharper and more effective, this is certainly not true. It's the other way around, as a poorly dressed soldier could easely make hypothermia even when he was in action. In addition, when the body temperature dropps (and that happends even if you're shaking or moving around to get warmer) it apears a severe decrease in the man's strength and in his precision in movement. And falling asleep is another danger of hypotermia, this is usually the mechanism of death by freezing, as in the sleep you genereate less body heat and enter a vicious cercle that results in death ithout medical help.

In the war a big related problem was the extensive use of strong alcool to "keep warm". Besides the obvious effect of getting drunk, the alcool accelerates the loss of body heat by increasing the blood flow in the skin. Many soldiers drenk vodka to feel wormer and suddenly fell asleep and froze to death. In small amounts, the acool does have some good effects when is cold, but this means under 100 ml. a day, few respected that amount.

And for the closure I must tell that warm clothes do not stimulate the need for sleep. A propperly dressed man will sleep normally, as the body acts in optimal conditions. Not even a big phisical effort will increase the need for sleep, it will only generate some temporary muscular pain and stiffness.

Thanks, Dr. V. That pretty much confirms common sense. I'm just wondering whether they were told that as propaganda (to hide the fact that they lacked clothing supplies), or whether they actually thought that was true back then. My guess is it was propaganda - they didn't want to demoralize the troops.

Funny how a soldier (even a fairly educated one) in those cruel conditions will cling to pretty much anything he is told.

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.............. He recalled how bitterly cold it was that winter, and how they were fighting a lot in forests and on mountains. What surprised me is that he said that they weren't issued winter coats, and he was thankful for this.  I asked him why he was happy about it, and he said that if he had been wearing a jacket, he would have fallen asleep and frozen to death. .....................

About the lack of winter clothing, I learned this from you and from Dr. V.
About the fact that the 1944-1945 winter in Czechoslovakia was really harsh, I was told by a colleague from my platoon during the military service. And any time we were outside during a very cold day, my colleague used to say: "... But imagine how it was for the guys who slept in the trenches during winter, in Czechoslovakia."

However, that winter couldn't be worse than those on the Eastern Front, even considering that the Romanian Army was in the southern part of Russia. Especially in 1943-1944. And as my grandfather told me, the wind was blowing there from East to West, thus blowing all the ice and snow in their face.

Returning to your story :idea: Next time when you'll meet the gentleman please ask him: If he couldn't afford to fall asleep, when did he sleep? On my behalf, I do not remember to be awake for more than 62 hours in a row. :wink:
Florin

I'll ask him next time I see him, Florin.

Regardless of the "how" and "why", could you imagine how hard it must have been for the troops both at Stalingrad and in Czechoslovakia?

There were also reports of troops too tired or too lethargic to pull the trigger on their weapons...

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........... Regardless of the \"how\" and \"why\", could you imagine how hard it must have been for the troops both at Stalingrad and in Czechoslovakia? ......................... There were also reports of troops too tired or too lethargic to pull the trigger on their weapons...

Once I met in a train a smart peasant in his 70's. He was sergeant in the ground personnel attached to a Romanian airfield near Stalingrad.

When the Russian advance started, they walked huge distances through the thick layer of snow to avoid being captured: 70 kilometers in less than 2 days. Maybe they did that in a full day and the following night, but I am not sure.

At the shore of a very shallow water, he asked the people to take the boots and socks out, and to walk bare foot to the other shore. It was a freezing temperature. A superior of his did not take the boots off. At the other shore they put their socks and boots back to their feet. Very soon the boots of his superior became covered with a continuous layer of ice. Short time after that the guy with frozen boots couldn't walk any more. The others carried him for a while, then they decided they cannot afford this any more. The half-frozen guy grabbed for his pistol, and pointed it towards the others, demanded to be carried. Somehow they tricked him and disarmed him, and let him there to die.

Florin

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For what I know, the lack of winter cloathing for the troops was due to negligence and poor organising of the supplies. It was a pretty common problem, few units were 100% properly supplied.

One should also remember to mention the fact that the Soviet allies used our transportation system and capacities for their needs. It was not just the Romanian bureaucrats.

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? I think he fought in Mochiulski's unit and went all the way past Banska-Bystrica (sorry for the spelling).

The 3rd Mountain Division was part of the 1st Army during 1945 and not of the 4th Army, which took Banska-Bystrica.

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mabadesc There were also reports of troops too tired or too lethargic to pull the trigger on their weapons...

I've had a patient who was a WW2 veteran and faught in Russia. Unrelated to his old age heart problems, I've noticed he had badly deformed fingers on his right hand, mostly the index and the medius (second and third fingers).
When I've aked him for the cause he told me that in the Russian winter was so cold that if you'd keep your fingers in straight for a long time you weren't able to bent them to pull the trigger, so they were keeping the fingers on the trigger almost all the time when they were in the front line. Tisway the fingers became stiff in a bent position and they could use the weapon anytime.
Of course that lead to a permanent diformity in the exposed joints; now he can't fully extend those fingers. He suffered a process similar to a very accelerated regional arthritis and the hand was painfull every autumn/winter since then. I don't know why wasn't he registered with light handicap (he would be at 1 on the scale to 4 degrees of handicap, 4 meaning unable to sustain himself), he surely can't propperly use the right hand and he should have received a handicap pension in addition to his normal retirement pension. Sadly in Romania today there are many young lasy men who receive such a pension without being entitled to it and the ones that really are eligible are ignored.


Generally speaking, a refrigerated man could probably fire a weapon, but certainly he wouldn't be able to aim it right. Keeping the troops poorly equipped for winter is a big mistake, they loose much of their fighting value. The Germans were the first to learn this lesson the hard way on the Eastern front.

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....... I've had a patient who was a WW2 veteran and faught in Russia. Unrelated to his old age heart problems, I've noticed he had badly deformed fingers on his right hand, mostly the index and the medius (second and third fingers). When I've aked him for the cause he told me that in the Russian winter ................ they  were keeping the fingers on the trigger almost all the time when they were in the front line. This way the fingers became stiff in a bent position and they could use the weapon anytime.   ......................................

What you wrote is very interesting. And also very sad.

About the disability certificates... At any time, any nation has people who make her feel ashame, and people who make her proud. The problem is how many are on each side, and which side prevail in a certain moment.
Regards,
Florin

If Major Calina vas alive( i read a communist book so you can`t be sure) it may have been in the same army,(3 or 4,i don`t remember),he said that almost no one had winter equipment .

i have a friend who fought in WWII romanian army in czech and he says that from what he remembers most of the people had winter clothing with the exceptions of the people who lost theirs =(

anyway he his division fought mainly in the mountains and he says he remembers most of them having knee length trench coats and caps and blankets on the shoulders. i found a similar picture to what he describes which i think is in the czech mountains (says it is an mg 42 team):

http://worldwar2.ro/foto/?id=216&area=31

the only thing i see missing in this picture is the shoulder blankets so i dunno about those.

A romanian soldier WITHOUT trenchcoat, in the winter of Czechoslovakia...
And a "Carol" helmet.

As I interview ww2 veteran sergeant Neag Nicolae from 93rd Romanian Infantry Regiment he told me that they went to the Moldavian front in "opinci" as they were issued with that footgear by the army!
Also, in Cehoslovacia, they were in the same "opinci" provided by romanian army, always cold and with their feet wet in winter time, and also the winter clothes were given in bad shape by the army to the front troops.
Check here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/memorii/?language=ro&article=784

In the same time, officer students from the same baracks were issues properly, as I interview ww2 veteran, officer-student Hosu Octavian. He told me that they have boots and proper uniforms according to the season.

The soldier from pic have a very clean uniform, belt and weapon.
Doesnt look like a man who came from the first line, where he fought just in this uniform, without trenchcoat.
Hypotesis nr. 1: It is very posible that if he was issued with trenchcoat he just left it somewhere for posing after his decoration.
Nr. 2: It was not so cold outside to determine the wearing of trenchcoat. He also doesnt wear gloves, but he has his hand on the weapons loader, which I supose is made from metal, and he doesnt seem to be bothered by the efect of the ice-cold metal over his hand.
Nr. 3: One can see from photo that his uniform is a winter one. Some army regulations are very accurate in determining what temperature has to be outside so a military is allowed to wear a trenchcoat (at least at romanian army regulations used in year 2000). I dont know if was the case in ww2 era. So, maybe was not cold enough to be allowed to wear his trenchcoat, if he had one.

Just my two-cent hypotesis

but the tree from the back is with snow...
In fact, i found that picture interesting, especially for this helmet with Carol II monogram. Maybe is like you told, he left his trenchcoat for a good image of his decoration (is a propaganda picture, we all see). Or it was a not so cold winter day