Picture of the Day - "Progress" in Iraq / Update

[Chandernagore]

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why should the post \"explosion\"(what explosion do you mean?) alpha emission be different?

I mean the shell hitting armor and bringing the stuff to extremely high temperatures. Different emission not, but increased.

[Chandernagore]

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We can now draw parallels to the crimes against the German troops in France 1944, most notably those at Tulle and Oradour, where German soldiers were savagely mutilated and lynched in a same manner

Your memory is failing Thomas. Oradour is one of the most well known and documented massacre of civilian population by the Waffen SS in France. Fortunately the village of Oradour has not forgotten :

http://www.oradour.org

Compiled from witness accounts of survivors and statements of the executioners, a 12-minute film, projected continuously, unfolds the events of 10 June 1944.

Early in the afternoon, the Waffen SS troops arrived at the entrance to the village and surrounded it.

The troops assembled the inhabitants in the village square. They separated men, women and children.

The men were executed in various parts of the village (forge, barns, and garages). The soldiers also killed at random in streets and houses, so that no witnesses would remain.

The women and children were massacred in the church where they were shut in; the soldiers then tried to blow the church up with explosives.

The troops then proceeded to get rid of the corpses, burning them and putting them into common graves so they could not be identified. The village was pillaged and burnt down; some of the troops remained in Oradour overnight. The rest joined them the following day to "erase" the traces of their crime.

There were 642 victims;
less than 10 % could be identified.

I strongly advise you, Thomas, not to go there to deliver a speech to the memory of SS "victims" of the war. You would be lynched on the spot.

[Thomas]

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I strongly advise you, Thomas,  not to go there to deliver a speech to the memory of SS \"victims\" of the war. You would be lynched on the spot.

Is there a moderator present who can wipe out Mr. anonymous' off topic rambling about me being lynched?

Sources provide information, the key element here. Emotional propaganda such as that made by Mr. anonymous is not information. As simple as that. If I want information on America, do I go to www.intifada.com? Hardly. Please learn the basics of scientific research first.

I propose Mr. anonymous is once again banned for a couple of days, since responding to only one line from my posting, making a 90%-quoted posting and being totally off-topic won't do this discussion on Iraq any good. Some people just don't want to learn.

[Chandernagore]

Poor Thomas. No other defense than continuously crying after a moderator.

Some confused and unconvincing bable about scientific research, the habitual Jewish reference, a little wind, nothing....

I invite everyone to type "Oradour" into any research engine and see Thomas horrible "mistake".

[Victor]

Cool it down! There is no need to get personal here. I wouldn't want to close this topic also so stick to the subject.

[Chandernagore]

Thomas presented us with an interesting "parallel" between the action of American democracy in Irak and Nazi Germany using a reference which happened to be the single most symbolic place of outrage over nazi massacres in France. I corrected him so that his ideological parallel is now where it should be. Now let's refocus on Irak ! 8)

[inahurry]

dead-cat,

Maybe my english betrayed me even though I suspect you read it badly.. Let's make it more clear : of course alpha radiation differs from beta and from gamma. Alpha type radiation are all the same but they can be emmitted from different radioactive sources. This is what I meant. The source, its lifetime, the concentration, this is the danger. A nuclear explosion spreads a devastating wave of radiation for a short moment while the nuclei of radioactive materials continue to emit many years after.

The Hiroshima and Nagasaki victims that survived the few weeks after the explosions but died in the next following years due to various forms of cancer proved to be caused by above normal radiation levels are a good example of post-explosion effects. Theoretically, there are decontamination methods but they proved until now limited in efficiency. A person dieing from cancer in Hiroshima 30-40 years after the explosion died probably because he would have suffered from cancer anywaybut, to my knowledge, even recently the incidence of cancer in the nuked cities is higher than the average in similar sized cities. For sure it was terribly higher in the 50ies and 60ies.

[PanzerKing]

The same is true for some of the Asian Pacific islands, they are just now being allowed back in some places where testing was done in the late 40's.

[mabadesc]

Here's an article from Washington Times quoting Czech president Vaclav Klaus's opinion of the EU. Comments, opinions are welcome:


"Czech warns Europe of 'dream world' woes


Czech President Vaclav Klaus said Europeans are living in a "dream world" of welfare and long vacations and have yet to realize "they are not moving toward some sort of nirvana."
The Czech Republic is a candidate for European Union membership, but Mr. Klaus, who was elected president in February, made clear in an interview his distaste for the organization.
However, he conceded during a visit to Washington last week that "the political unification of Europe" is now in "an accelerated process ... in all aspects and in all respects."
Mr. Klaus said the movement toward a single political entity of 25 European nations "will not change until people start thinking and realizing they are not moving toward some sort of nirvana."
The Czech president remains convinced that "you cannot have democratic accountability in anything bigger than a nation state."
Asked whether he could see the nation-state disappearing, Mr. Klaus replied, "That could well be the case, [but] it remains to be seen whether it will be the nominal disappearance or the real disappearance.
"We could see the scaffolding of a nation-state that would retain a president and similar institutions, but with virtually zero influence," he said "That's my forecast. And it's not a reassuring vision of the future."
Last week, the European Court of Auditors in Luxembourg released a 400-page report that found "systematic problems, over-estimations, faulty transactions, significant errors and other shortcomings" in the EU budget.
EU auditors could vouch for only 10 percent of the $120 billion the bloc spent in 2002. It was the ninth successive year the auditors were unable to certify the budget as a whole.
Europeans have not yet faced up to such "serious underlying issues," Mr. Klaus said, because "they are still in the dream world of welfare, long vacations, guaranteed high pensions and cradle-to-grave social security."
The biggest challenge for the Czech Republic, Mr. Klaus said, is to avoid falling into the trap of "a new form of collectivism." Asked whether he meant a new form of neo-Marxism, he said, "Absolutely not, but I see other sectors endangering free societies.
"The enemies of free societies today are those who want to burden us down again with layer upon layer of regulations," Mr. Klaus said.
"We had that in communist times. But now if you look at all the new rules and regulations of EU membership, layered bureaucracy is staging a comeback."
The European Union's 30,000 bureaucrats have produced some 80,000 pages of regulations that the Czech Republic and the other applicants for EU membership will have to adopt.
Mr. Klaus dismissed anti-Americanism in Europe, which he sees as "more a reflection of American anti-Europeanism than European anti-Americanism."
He said those who organize demonstrations in Europe are a tiny minority of the population. "The majority doesn't care to demonstrate."
Asked about the U.S.-led war on terrorism, Mr. Klaus said, "It is quite normal that the principal targets of al Qaeda are the U.S. and the UK, as they have taken the lead to do something about those who launch the terrorist attacks.
"We understand the fragility and vulnerability of today's world and we know these attacks are coming close to us, but as someone from a small country, I have a tendency to take domestic issues first and then look at the external ones."
The Czech Republic is one of 33 nations with troops in Iraq, but Mr. Klaus has been critical of the postwar transition to an Iraqi civilian government.
"My concern was always what to do after the end of the war because I know something about the transition from a totalitarian regime to a free society," he said. "This cannot be done by soldiers, or by foreigners.
"After we won back our freedom at the end of the Cold War, there was a proposal to bring back Czechs who had escaped to Western countries and make up a new government of those people who had been living in free countries.
"Those who had lived the tragic communist experience said no to the idea of foreigners organizing our transition back to freedom. We said we had to do this ourselves without outside influence dictating what we should do."
"

[Chandernagore]

Not too bad actually, albeit I don't see him so much experienced about democracy and union as to shoot warnings. Where he takes his ideas of European nirvana I don't know. We didn't wait for him to study those problems and we know we have problems too. The social welfare is not something that fell on Europeans like grape from the Valhalla. There was hard social fighting during long stretches of history to develop them. In the absolute certainty that they are necessary and good for society we differ from the Americans. It's certainly a cultural difference, priority choice.

What I absolutely do not understand is why Mr Klaus wants to join an organization that he dislikes. Like some say it's a club. Nobody goes to the club against his own will and the people inside it are not interested in negative incomers. I could say "if you do not have faith in EU, please stay outside, it will be better for everyone".

On the other hand he's right about those layers of bureaucracy. It's something EU should always strive to reduce. There is nothing good in it, it might even be dangerous. But then we need something that works right now. If someone has a better idea how to join 10-20 nations (which slaughtered each other for the major part of their history) into a functional power block, by all means come forward ! Perhaps Mr Klaus has found a way to harmoniously merge 20 complex economies and political systems (at the necessary detail level) with 800 pages regulations ?

I don't think anyone has that sort of experience. So it's pretty much a pioneer work and naturally errors are committed, you do not always find the right way to do thing on the first try. The dream world Mr Klaus talks a about is a 50 years old hard work dream with many many challenges lying ahead. If he does not believe in it he should take his country in the direction where he thinks it will fare better. And I sincerely wish him success.

As for the way of setting a democratic wheel in Irak, I share his opinion that foreigners are unlikely to provide the best means. But then I don't really believe anyone can succeed to build a democracy from scratch in a Muslim country.

[inahurry]

Aren’t these communist nostalgic just yummy !?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2003Nov10.html

“Wanted: A Few Good Vets
By David S. Broder
Tuesday, November 11, 2003; Page A25

There are many reasons to wish that the United States had a system of national service that offered all young Americans the bonding experience that many men and some women of previous generations found through membership in the armed forces.

Living, eating and working together with Americans of different races, educations, religions and backgrounds, as millions did between 1940 and 1970, had benefits that lasted a lifetime and helped every aspect of our national life -- including politics.

It contributed to the sense of community that supported local schools, built local hospitals and endowed local athletic, recreational and artistic facilities. It sustained the national spirit through the decades of the Cold War and helped the nation recover from assassinations, riots and other travails of the 1960s.
…

It is not just politicians and legislators who would benefit from undergoing the discipline and experiencing the rewards of giving a period of their lives to tasks assigned by their country -- either military or civilian. That is the surest way we know to restore the sense of shared commitment so lacking today. “

Does anyone else smell the wind of drafting blowing over US ?

[mabadesc]

Yeah, you're right, these guys from the article you posted are crazy.

I guess that's one of the biggest disadvantages in America (and in any democracy): there are always some people advertising the craziest ideas - from extreme left to extreme right, going through anarchy and anything in between.

On the other hand, you have to realize that most times these people do not represent the majority (just like in the example you gave), but rather a small minority that has no impact.

[Chandernagore]

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I guess that's one of the biggest disadvantages in America (and in any democracy):  there are always some people advertising the craziest ideas - from extreme left to extreme right, going through anarchy and anything in between.

Yes, it's a huge problem called "freedom of speech" It's up to the reader to determine if the opinion posted is that of half the country or a lone psychopath...

[Der Maresal]

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.....well, we're still disagreeing, but this thread is finally becoming interesting because we can lead a civilized discussion and learn from each other.  The \"distractions\" seem to have gone away.  :wink:

No, they have not gone away -and as long as this war will last you can be sure that more 'distracting images' will be posted here. At lest, the latest pictures showing your freedomfighters getting killed by bricks is a different reality then the one you see on Janes military or CNN.

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... The American way of judging international situations is becoming hypocritical, and certainly their hearthy laughs and winks at the \"resistance\" in France/Belgium 1944 must taste quite sour now!

Thank You for the pictures, - they are very good and appropriate. Not because we like to see more dead (we've see enough of that already in all cities and towns where US bombs fell, weather in the second world war or recently in Serbia. People forget that american bombs last fell on Europe in the Spring of 1999, and not in 1945. There is hardly a country in Europe that was not bombed [by them]. That is hard to forgive. :?

The US is now stuck in Iraq, and it will not get out soon (a 5 year occupation is reality now) The word "Democratic" not longer has any significance, - no longer means anything because if the Iraqi people were to 'elect' a government it would be an Islamic type of government - and that is exactly what the US government is there to prevent! Democracy is just a word- the peoples are just pawns on a chess board.

The Americans are stuck in this, and only they can be blaimed for it and no-one else. This will not end good at all - there will be alot of American casualties in the future. More Kalashnikovs and RPG's will make them realize that it is better to be opressed by one of your own then by a forign army.Iraqis hate the US more then they hated Saddam Hussein- Besides all the problems they now experience, - they have few translators that can speak Arabic, and are really having trouble "winning the hearts and minds of the poppulation". :roll:
Russia and Germany - both lost millions in the War...in the Wars. The US hardly lost anybody - from now on dark days lie ahead for the Americans,
which will hopefully calm their appetite for war and conquest.
I would not like to be american right now. Luckily I'm not.

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We can now draw parallels to the crimes against the German troops in France 1944, most notably those at Tulle and Oradour, where German soldiers were savagely mutilated and lynched in a same manner. The blame of these incidents fully lies with the “partisans” – unlawful fighters without too much concern for moral or warfare regulations. These terrorists have as aim to start hate against the occupying force by attacking soldiers, triggering a response which will obviously be negative for anyone involved.

I have evidence that crimes against German troops were not just done by Partizans. Like it or not - they were also committed by Partizans in American Uniform. After the Dachau trials, some of the most horrible crimes the US army ever committed took place.
560 innocent prissoners were murdered in cold blood, and not much has been said of this to this day.

Clearly who in this pictures is the murderer? And what have these man who are dead and dying have done to Americans?

These men still standing are medics.

ahh, but no - their all 'nazis' and should be shot until their br.. ..come out.


<-The man here still holds a rosary in his hand. But that does not prevent the butchers of the seventh army to robb and plunder the bodies.

There is one famous passage that says; "the only difference between Nazis and Americans is the color of their Uniform." :roll:
- I would add to this that the nazis at least had good uniforms. 8)
:!:

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- http://www.ai.ee/users/revisjon/dauchau_massacre/ -

[Der Maresal]

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... The American way of judging international situations is becoming hypocritical, and certainly their hearthy laughs and winks at the \"resistance\" in France/Belgium 1944 must taste quite sour now!

more pictures pleaze.. :wink: