Picture of the Day - "Progress" in Iraq / Update

[Geto-Dacul]

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If your cities will ever look like that - you can't simply say   Quote:   \"Ohh, what did we do to deserve this??\"

The Americans never tasted what a real bombardment means... Maybe if they'll be attacked on their territory, maybe only then they'll renounce or balance their imperialist policy ; ok, there was September 11... But of what I know, in WW1 too their was an "11 September" on sea with the Lusitania, and in WWII also, with Pearl Harbour.


Getu'

[Victor]

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And also, for the bombs thrown on us without any good reason by American \"Liberators\" in 1943-44, of course that it would be natural that people like Der Maresal dislike them. Getu'

It was war, Romania was an enemy, Romania produced and refined oil. What sort of reason you need more?
Unlike you or Der Maresal, interestingly, there were many then that did not have grudges against the Americans even though they lost someone close.

[Geto-Dacul]

Victor wrote :

QUOTE

It was war, Romania was an enemy, Romania produced and refined oil. What sort of reason you need more?   Unlike you or Der Maresal, interestingly, there were many then that did not have grudges against the Americans even though they lost someone close.

Yes, it was war... But what did we do to America to be bombed like this? Remember that in 1944, the Americans started bombing also civilian centers.
As for the people who had not grudges, its their problem. A great part of them are probably selective ; if the Soviets would have killed their "close ones", I'm sure that they've hate them 1000 years. But I'm sure that they regard the Americans as "special", due to ignorance and clichés.

Getu'

[Victor]

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Yes, it was war... But what did we do to America to be bombed like this? Remember that in 1944, the Americans started bombing also civilian centers.

Compared to what some Geman or Japanese cities received, we got off pretty cheap.

QUOTE

As for the people who had not grudges, its their problem. A great part of them are probably selective ; if the Soviets would have killed their \"close ones\", I'm sure that they've hate them 1000 years. But I'm sure that they regard the Americans as \"special\", due to ignorance and clichés. Getu'

I would not like to generalize, but the more powerful anti-Russian sentiment was easily explained through the fact that they were responsible for much more suffering for much more people in Romania. It would only be logical to dislike them more. Especially since these were not caused by impersonal bombs, but by more direct actions.

[mabadesc]

Maresal quoted me saying:

QUOTE

mabadesc wrote:   Russia and Germany - both lost millions in the War...in the Wars. The US hardly lost anybody.   Correct.

Incorrect. You're not quoting me. You're quoting *yourself*. Take another look at my post. I was quoting *you*.

[mabadesc]

Getu said,

QUOTE

Yes, the American society could be qualified as the \"first essay of a global society\".

Dude, you live in *Canada* which is as much a melting pot as the US. Does that mean you also hate the place you live in? And if you do, why are you still there?

Maresal said,

QUOTE

Well,-- killing someone, you have the right to do- but to judge him;- that you have no right - just as you had no right no judge these men in 1946.

Say what? You can kill someone but you can't judge him? The "who are you to judge me?" cliche is the typical quote of political correctness, which you despise so much, and now you're using the same quote?
By the way, if you read the deliberations of the Nurenberg judges, you'll see that invariably the Soviet judge demanded the harshest punishments, not the US judge.

Maresal said,

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I'm not trying to be Anti-American...

Sure you're not. It shows, too... :wink:

Maresal said,

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But I would rather show you the camps across Germany you build,   -which did in fact exist..!

I'm sure that they did not exist, at least in the manner you which describe them. But since you opened up the topic of camps across Europe, now this becomes a fair question: What IS your opinion of the Holocaust? Or are you afraid to answer?

Maresal's motto is

"The enemy of my enemy, is my Friend!"

Does that mean that Al-Qaeda is your friend?

[Geto-Dacul]

Victor wrote :

QUOTE

Compared to what some Geman or Japanese cities received, we got off pretty cheap.

Yes, but it didn't help Romania to get out of the war better... As we discussed in many other threads. Romania's war was against USSR, not USA or G-B...

QUOTE

I would not like to generalize, but the more powerful anti-Russian sentiment was easily explained through the fact that they were responsible for much more suffering for much more people in Romania. It would only be logical to dislike them more. Especially since these were not caused by impersonal bombs, but by more direct actions.

If 95% of them are like I described it, than generalization is worth something. By not generalizing someday, you'll leave things ambiguous, or you'll say that the minority is right. In the Scientific method, "generalization" is the path that leads to the establishment of a theory.

Regards,

Getu'

[Geto-Dacul]

mabadesc wrote :

QUOTE

Dude, you live in *Canada*  which is as much a melting pot as the US. Does that mean you also hate the place you live in? And if you do, why are you still there?

"Generalization" ...

No, Canada is actually lesser a melting pot than the US! But she'll be like the US in the next 25 years! :wink: That's the fate of colonial "nations". I never said that I hate Canada... It's true that I dislike some aspects. But actually, it isn't me who decided of the place were I live today! I would gladly return back to Romania, but this will be done in the next years. Do not worry, I'll never die here!

Getu'

[Chandernagore]

I will try some answers to der Maresal's latest er... declarations.

QUOTE

What right have you to go and drop bombs over their cities, to burn their famillies, to destroy their heritage.

The right given by declaration of war. The main heritage destroyed being that of nazi ambitions, I feel like the world was very lucky indeed. If you think there was a bright future, any future for Rumania in a nazi dominated Europe, you're lost in candyland.

QUOTE

What right did you have to test atomic bombs on civilians?

The bomb was tested in America and dropped with reasonable knowledge of the consequence on a country at war with the US. It reached it's goal of ending a war which otherwise would have resulted in yet far more casualties, including Japanese civilians. No nation facing that situation would have taken another path.

The US did not initiate the targeting of cities. Guernica, London, Warsaw, Rotterdam... does it ring a bell in your head ?

QUOTE

And what right did you have to judge them after the war for the exact same crimes you committed yourslef?...but to judge him;- that you have no right...

Vae victis. I do not pity the nazis. And you're mistaken. Everyone had the right to judge that monster regime.

QUOTE

Don't think that your country won't someday be judged for these same crimes- for you have committed them all plus so much more!

You seem unable to qualitatively and quantitatively discern a black rat from a pink elephant.

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if the average American had not slept, and cared more about who runs his country, this would not be happening.

How are you personally affected by the actions of the current US governement ?

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Therefore if the founding-fathers of America were all Freemasons, I should not be judgind the results today.

True or false, what has this to make with the price of the fish ?

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I'll show you pictures of dead children of all nationalities - you killed - if that's what you want to see.... But I would rather show you the camps across Germany you build,

In a war unfortunately, civilians of all sides are killed by all sides. Some are the results of military actions, some are the results of organized extermination on industrial level. Pick your side. Do you think the US POW camps where anything close to, say, Treblinka ?

QUOTE

A systematic plan was established by your diabolic Eisenhower to punish the german nation and therefore starve out it's poppulation, prisonners and..children. Don't be in denial after reading this, and remeber the ..nurberg trial.  :?

Hogwash. There was starvation resulting from difficulties and chaos. A systematic plan to starve ? Was it called Marshall Plan ? I didn't notice West Germany was excluded from it, though understandably they didn't get top priority over the countries they've invaded and ruined.

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These deaths were not accidental, but were the result of deliberately genocidal policies instituted by Dwight Eisenhower and Henry Morgenthau.  They began planning for this in 1944, before the extent of the atrocities of the death camps became known.

I will tell you a secret : the Martians have taken control of Morgenthau the Black Witch Conspirator and all the original Germans have been turned into toads.

QUOTE

The Russians and Poles with the help of the US and Britain, seized one quarter of Germany including the best farmland and expelled some 16 million civilians.

I'm sure the Russians didn't need any help to expel the German population from East Prussia before the war even ended. However I do wonder why Eisenhower (the Genocidal Devil) didn't annex half Germany, that remains a mind boggling mistery.

I think some people can swallow just about anything. Logic, facts, archives, data, memory it's all to no avail. They decided to believe in something else.

Strange. The more I hear of this the more I feel close to Americans :roll:

[PanzerKing]

Der Maresal:

I don't know how to put this kindly, so I won't....you're acting like a freaking moron. The reason I am angry is because of how much you generalize and judge me. You see that I am from the USA so you automatically judge me and use broad generalizations against me. That's not mature. Do you really think I don't know the history of my country? Do you think I don't really know what goes on? Since I'm from the US I must be blind to the situation and deaf to the truth.

You even put my avatar to show how that I'm a mean, war monging, blood thirsty American. Grow up. Did you ever happen to think that I liked the MOVIE!!!!!!!!!!!
Did I EVER say that Americans aren't guilty of war crimes? Did I EVER deny the crimes? No, I brought out the fact that you generalized the entire American Army on the basis of a stupid quote. You just picked apart my post to suite your bashing of me, because I'm American.

Did you happen to read this that I wrote?

"I disagree with pretty much everything my country does internationally, I oppose it strongly and hope to help change it one day...but do not think for one goddamn minute that the people you see running things in the US are the same as the people that live in it everyday..."

This means that the power is not really in the hands of the people, so don't judge us like it is. You automatically accuse me of being a nasty, greedy, power hungry American...this is why I am mad...

You wrote:

"Blaming others for their crimes does not make your own crimes seem less. The Germans and Russians may have committed crimes against one another but they did not do anything to your country or people. What right have you to go and drop bombs over their cities, to burn their famillies, to destroy their heritage. What right did you have to test atomic bombs on civilians? And what right did you have to judge them after the war for the exact same crimes you committed yourslef? ! Well,-- killing someone, you have the right to do- but to judge him;- that you have no right - just as you had no right no judge these men in 1946."

That's funny! You're bringing up something that I had nothing to do with...there goes those generalizations! You act like I defend everything America does, I do NOT! Did I ever say: "The US is totally 100% not guiltly of anything during WW2. We never had war crimes, however we did judge those who did, and rightfully so." NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why are you blaming me and accusing me of such things?

You're not very good at bringing up relavent points... :roll:

[Chandernagore]

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Yes, the American society could be qualified as the \"first essay of a global society\". But I wouldn't care of them if they would stay where they are and not enter in the politico-economical affairs of other nations with even greater histories and cultures.

Agree

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And also, for the bombs thrown on us without any good reason by American \"Liberators\" in 1943-44, of course that it would be natural that people like Der Maresal dislike them.

The reason was already given by victor. I would just like to precise that the first massive low level raid of 1943 on Ploesti was unique in WWII in that it probably resulted in more military than civilian casualties, the crew being given severe instructions not to drop anything inside the ring of refineries (that is, the city itself). Later of course, the high level bombing strategy was not so clean.

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

I would gladly return back to Romania, but this will be done in the next years. Do not worry, I'll never die here!

Pfew ! N Bucovina has still a few years of peace ahead

[inahurry]

So Washington Post is some sort of white supremacist newspaper now, interesting.

Also, a proposed US Senate Bill that clearly states all valid people in the fork of 18 to 26 years, men or women, should be enlisted for a duration of 2 years to serve the military or some kind of compulsory civil indenturing when the ranks of the military are filled is some kind of harmless talk.

Ok, in the same line of “small town” gazettes I will reproduce a passage from New York Times that revolted, for good reason, the Brit Robert Fisk, the best war reporter of the moment. Wait, I won’t bother to post the link because, as “we” know, New York Times is another white supremacists leaflet, David Brooks (the author there) is crazy and Robert Fisk is a simple mind who has nothing better to do than risk his life in Iraq or Afghanistan so people can mock him later:

“And while the Pentagon is now planning to have 100,000 GIs in Iraq until 2006, the journalistic heavyweights are stoking the fires of patriotism with a new and even more chilling propaganda line. One of the most vicious has just been published in The New York Times. Claiming that Saddam's torturers are attacking American troops - some of his intelligence men are now working for the occupying army, but that's another matter - David Brooks writes that "history shows that Americans are willing to make sacrifices. The real doubts come when we see ourselves inflicting them. What will happen to the national mood when the news programmes start broadcasting images of the brutal measures our own troops will have to adopt? Inevitably there will be atrocities that will cause many good-hearted people to defect from the cause ... somehow ... the Bush administration is going to have to remind us again and again that Iraq is the Battle of Midway in the war on terror ..."

What on earth is one to make of this vile nonsense? Why is The New York Times providing space for the advocacy of war crimes by US soldiers? I doubt the US channels will broadcast any images of "brutal measures" - they've already had the chance to do so and have declined. But atrocities? Are we now to support atrocities against the "scum of the earth" - Mr Brooks' word for the insurgents - in our moral campaign against Evil? “

At least we know how it is acceptable to execute, without trial, uniformed soldiers taken prisoners, if some smart ass official propagandist declares them "scum of the earth" then it's ok. This kind of madness makes the world war even more probable than plans for full scale draft.

[Victor]

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Yes, it was war... But what did we do to America to be bombed like this? Remember that in 1944, the Americans started bombing also civilian centers.

In Romania there was no targeting of specific civilian centers. The targets were refineries, marshalling yards, factories etc, all viable military targets. The precision of the high altitude bombing was small, so civilian casualties occurred. In total there were 7,693 dead and 7,809 wounded and about 30,000 buildings destroyed or damaged. The highest casualties were on 4 April in Bucharest: 2,942 dead and 2,126 wounded, 905 houses destroyed and 1,373 damaged. This happened mainly because when the Marshalling yard before the Northern Station was hit, there were many trains with refugees from Moldavia. Also the bombs meant for the Military Academy fell in the public garden near the intersection between Calea Plevnei and Stirbei Voda (near present-day Eroilor metro station, where the huge unfinished building is). Many so-called bomb shelters were built there and those who took refuge in them were pretty unlucky. At Ploesti, the following day (5 April) there were 262 dead, 361 wounded and 197 houses destroyed.

[Thomas]

Who says there was no plan in America to harm the German people and its state?

In february 1941 the Jew Theodore Kaufman published his book "Germany must perish!" in which he openly declared some of his criminal intentions. This Kaufman was a member of the Jewish Congres and chairman of an organisation called (don't laugh): "American Federation for Peace". Look at what this criminal monster writes, emphasis added:

"This analogous linking of the people of Germany with savage breast is no vulgar comparison. I feel no more personal hatred for these people than I might feel for a herd of wild animals or a cluster of poisonous reptiles. "

Chapter 7 of this "book" is even called "Death to Germany!".

To my astonishment I found out that this book is still available at Amazon.com, the online shopping place of the Americans. Here is the link to the book;

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...127323?v=glance

But it doesn't end here. Yet another, equally criminal, Jew writes a "review" and says about Kaufman and his book - emphasis was added and please read the underlined text well;

"Kaufman was a courageous Jew who knew the Torah well, and thus the mistake our fathers made when they did not destroy our enemy Amalek, in spite of the divine commandement. Kaufman was smart enough to learn from this, and here he dared advocate the only solution viable for the survival of our race regarding people that hate us. Here in the book he gave strong Jewish arguments for the complete extermination of this anti-Semitic Germanic people. This book was influential for American decision-makers and is the key for understanding the Allies program of bombing of civilians in Germany and other fascist countries such as France, Italy, Belgium, etc. The program failed as many European civilians survived the bombing, yet I learned that they are now dying out, especially in Germany where Germans do not reproduce (and half the population is no longer Germanic.) I wonder if post-holocaust Europeans have absorbed the Kaufman's condemnation and apply it (unconsciously) themselves, or if the hand of G-d it at work, cursing our enemies, as I can read in the Tanakh. "

This is sheer and purely criminal madness. The ignorance of these statements is staggering - he calls Belgium a fascist state during the war, a serious error. Can't believe this is allowed to be published on amazon's website. Amazing! The now banned member PogRomus said: "If there is something more extreme then Jewish supremacism, I have not see it yet." How far is this from the truth, when we reed above statements?

But about Iraq, I think 'PanzerKing' is a decent American and he is more than smart enough to reject the mad anti-German claims made by either Kaufman or the anonymous "chandernagore", who makes provocative statements from behind a computer screen but hides his real identity. Somehow I wish there were more Americans like PanzerKing, as this would lead to both a better image of the Americans abroad and, much more importantly, better decisions and less useless intrusion in other states' national affairs.

The US destroyed Iraq and killed its people, children included. Not during the recent 2nd Gulf War, no - but with the embargo posed against Iraq after the first Gulf War! I think everyone will agree that the massive bombing of civilian installations in Iraq (The US even bombed nuclear power plants!) was a crime and only resulted in useless carnage, but have a look at this (movie and sound available):

http://www.distanceeddesign.com/iraq/worth...h-the-price.htm

This is what the reporter asked Albright in 1996, regarding the sanctions posed against Iraq, which among others forbid the import of medicines;
"We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And - and you know, is the price worth it?"

This is the reply;
"I think this is a very hard choice, but the price - we think the price is worth it."

How can any sane person agree with these criminal statements? Who is perpetrating crimes against humanity here? And who is supporting it? Only 'chandernagore'.

Der Maresal, you shouldn't be too hard on 'PanzerKing', he has already stated his disliking of his states' affairs and if you look at some recent polls you will see that there is almost a small majority against Bush, but the poll seems to swing in and out of the red a lot. The problem with America is the total supremacy of the media, it is one of the most lying and falsyfing media I have ever seen. It even goes beyond the lying leftist European media, and trust me, to surpass the European media in lying you need to be good, really good. This media is mostly the only one followed by Americans and as a result too many Americans become sort of brainwashed by the carefully thought out lies made up in the chambers of the White House and other dark places. Remember Bay of Tonkin? Watergate? Only after the facts we find out the US media played a game thought out by the white house.

I like the U.S. for it's basic values - freedom and independance. The U.S., as a country that was born by a revolution, is dramatically losing course and is cashing and burning everywhere it goes. The world is heating up in anti-American sentiment and this can be felt everywhere, with negative impact for themselves and their allies. The only people that can quell these sentiments are the Americans themselves, so this means people like PanzerKing.