Picture of the Day - "Progress" in Iraq / Update

[Victor]

I do not see how the first post made by Muddy Boots is racist. North Koreans are not a race. They are not even a nation. I interpreted the post as a pamphlet (which I hope it was) to the "benefits" of Communism and other dictatorships.

Btw, Geto-Dacul and Der Maresal should also consider the huge amounts of money spent by the North Korean authorities on their military, while their own people are starving.

99 billion USD could have fed a lot of people in Africa, provided them with a clean water supply, medical assistance, schools, contraceptive devices to stop the spreading of AIDS etc, etc. But the US national interest was to secure another oil source, as the Saudis become less and less dependable. Aren't you the guys advocating nationalism? Why is it wrong for the Americans to seek their interests and not wrong for others to do so. It is pretty curious that I have not seen you complaining about the extra Russian troops, which are going to be deployed in Trans-Dnestra, about the plan to federalize the Republic of Moldavia.

What is annoying about the American intervention in Iraq is the propaganda BS, but as I already said before, it is not the first time a great power uses it to justify its actions.

[MuddyBoots]

North Koreea is a hobby of mine (how bad can it get ?).

I've checked the data, I seem to be off by around 5cm in average heights.

Now the data:

Average mature heights 166cm South, 155cm North

Average 7 year old height 105cm - those born during the famine

Growth charts

Take my results and North Korea's official reports with a grain of salt.

[MuddyBoots]

As you know, the Swiss have a reputation for being neutral. And ethnically diverse. And not inclined towards ethnic cleansing. Why?

[url=http://www.worldandihomeschool.com/public_articles/2002/june/wis22334.asp]
Because the citizens are the army.[/url]

[mabadesc]

Victor said,

QUOTE

Aren't you the guys advocating nationalism? Why is it wrong for the Americans to seek their interests and not wrong for others to do so

Correct. It seems easy to understand, and I'm sure Thomas and Getu do understand, but they're voluntarily being selective and applying a double standard.

QUOTE

What is annoying about the American intervention in Iraq is the propaganda BS

And I agree with this. A lot of their propaganda is BS, but so is a lot of the anti-war propaganda propagated by France and Germany, who cry for innocent casualties, but in reality they're upset because they miss the old contracts they had with Saddam (esp. France).

Thomas said:

QUOTE

As far as the \"excellent casualty ratio\" goes, that's sick. Moderators must be having a long sleep or something. This excellent kill ratio large consisted of bombing civilians and herds of hopeless outgunned soldiers to their death from the sky.

Go ahead and puke, because I'm sticking to what I said, I'll even repeat it. During the invasion, the US/UK coalition had some 300000 troops, the Iraki army more than twice as much. Considering the large number of troops engaged, it really was an excellent casualty ratio. Quite humanitarian too. They could have taken advantage of the retreating Iraki armies and pulverized them since they hadn't officially surrendered. They didn't do that because there was no need for senseless killing and because they didn't want to turn Irak's public opinion against them even further.

If you want to use valid arguments, you can mention that the US was wrong to invade Irak to begin with. Then you'll have some valid arguments. Even though I don't agree with them, I recognize there were some logical, valid anti-war arguments with regards to Irak.

But in terms of the actual war, stop it with the BS propaganda of "crimes of war", "civilian casualties", etc....Compared to other wars, this was a very clean, exceptionally well-fought one.

[Geto-Dacul]

Victor wrote :

QUOTE

Btw, Geto-Dacul and Der Maresal should also consider the huge amounts of money spent by the North Korean authorities on their military, while their own people are starving.

Don't forget the economical blocus that N.Korea is obliged to support from Western countries. The only foreign aids that they receive are from China. As for the military budget, they don't have a choice here. US troops are still in S.Korea, and N.Korea must modernize her army.
It is said that a war between N.Korea and the US would be won by the Americans, but with the loss of more than 100.000 and the death of more than a million South Korean citizens (those living in Seul), because of the 11.000 N.Korean artillery peaces that will fire of S.Korea.

QUOTE

Aren't you the guys advocating nationalism? Why is it wrong for the Americans to seek their interests and not wrong for others to do so.

American policy cannot be qualified as nationalist. Of course they seek for their interests. You don't have to be nationalist to do or know this. As I said before (and even Chandernagore 'approved' it ), the Americans are not a nation, they are a decentralized melting-pot... A conglomerate of people, the first "global society". A nationalist country is more than a consumption society.

QUOTE

It is pretty curious that I have not seen you complaining about the extra Russian troops, which are going to be deployed in Trans-Dnestra, about the plan to federalize the Republic of Moldavia.

I would surely complaign, but this thread was about Iraq. And I though that you guys regarded "federalization" as a good thing in the "process of democratization", opposed to the "brutal" and "communist" centralized administration. Putin gave Voronin a plane, and that bolshevik will sign the federalization of the Republic of Moldavia. Divida Et Impera!
Let's see if our beloved Americans will help us to take those territories back!

Getu'

[Geto-Dacul]

MuddyBoots, are you Korean?

BTW, Switzerland is the banking center of Europe... Of course that they'll be spared, when a war brokes up. Why? Because the antagonists keep their money there! So the idea that Switzerland is stable "and not inclined to ethnic cleansing" or that "Hitler didn't invade it because they are a nation of warriors" looks more like b*llshit...

If Hitler wanted to invade Switzerland, in 24 hours Switzerland would have been part of the Reich.
Today, yes, Switzerland has the money to keep a strong army. As for ethnic cleansing, you must understand that in most cases, it is provoqued by others, in order to destabilize the country. Again, I fail to see how Switzerland could be theatre of such a thing, when they are the #1 bankers in Europe.

Getu'

[MuddyBoots]

The only embargo on North Korea is the american embargo. That doesn't apply to humanitarian aid. The UN, the US, the EU and South Korea have contributed food/money/aid to North Korea. There was even a deal for disarmament (stopping the nuke program) brokered by the Clinton administration.

There may be other embargos by Western countries but they refer to export of sensitive technologies (mainly nuclear) and weapons.

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

As I said before (and even Chandernagore 'approved' it  ), the Americans are not a nation

Mmm I did'nt say that. Of course it's a nation, but it is build on different principles than most others. Doesn't make it less valid as a nation, on the contrary.

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

France and Germany, who cry for innocent casualties, but in reality they're upset because they miss the old contracts they had with Saddam great power uses it to justify its actions.

Come on now, Mabadesc :wink: You know France and Germany have a lot more contracts and business going with the US than they ever had with Irak. So if they must piss off someone on purely financial ground, it should be the Irakis not the major trading partner.

But the truth that few Republicans will acknowledge is that Western Europe has voiced opposition to the Iraki adventure mainly on principle grounds. Well it is hard for both side to claim the morale high ground so someone must be wrong. The morale challenge is not really well accepted by the Bush admin and the violence unleashed by the US media toward France and Germany is testimony to that... Meanwhile the voice of the people in the European streets overwhelmingly support the anti war positions even in countries like Spain whose government took a pro Bush stance.

Clearly, people think that unilateralism is bad, that UN should play the role for which it was built, that exporting politics at gunpoint is not going to work well, that lying about the war objectives is serious etc...

You can choose to look for reasons in contracts but you would mostly find only those which everybody signed at a time when Rumsfeld was shaking Saddam's hand and smiling to him. That is, the very time when Saddam's regime reached it's highest genocidal levels. So, shame on all for that.

[MuddyBoots]

a short list of facts:

Hitler cut their supply of coal.

During WW2 Switzerland mobilised 20% of its population. That means _all_ able men.

German military aircraft that were shot down/landed in Switzerland . You notice that the crews were "interned" - that means detained, imprisoned.

24 hours for the occupation of Switzerland? Have you looked at the map? It took 3 weeks to conquer Poland(8082 to 10572 killed, 27,278 to 30,322 wounded and 3404 to 5029 missing). No big mountains there.

[Geto-Dacul]

MuddyBoots wrote :

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Hitler cut their supply of coal.

And?...

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During WW2 Switzerland mobilised 20% of its population. That means _all_ able men.

What was the total pop. of Switzerland in 1939? Some 4.2 millions?

QUOTE

24 hours for the occupation of Switzerland? Have you looked at the map? It took 3 weeks to conquer Poland(8082 to 10572 killed, 27,278 to 30,322 wounded and 3404 to 5029 missing). No big mountains there.

What is the size of Switzerland and what was the size of Poland in 1939? Back then, Poland's size was almost like that of Germany today. Poland had some 30 millions... It took only 3 weeks to the Germans because the Soviets arrived "in help" at the end of the second week. Switzerland could be encircled from France and Italy. With heavy bombardments, the important centers could have been very fastely occupied, remained only to clean up the mountains. And plus, there were alot of pro-German organizations in S.

Getu'

[dead-cat]

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It took only 3 weeks to the Germans because the Soviets arrived \"in help\" at the end of the second week.

the invasion started on sept 1st (duh).
soviets invaded on sept. 17th. this makes it mid-of-the-3rd-week.

besides, i don't think it made any diffrence. Warszaw was very much encircled allready and would yield to the germans anyway. and after that it's game over.

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

What is the size of Switzerland and what was the size of Poland in 1939? Back then, Poland's size was almost like that of Germany today. Poland had some 30 millions... It took only 3 weeks to the Germans because the Soviets arrived \"in help\" at the end of the second week. Switzerland could be encircled from France and Italy. With heavy bombardments, the important centers could have been very fastely occupied, remained only to clean up the mountains.

It's not a question of size, it's a question of terrain and mentalities. The Soviets never managed to "clean the mountains" in Afghanistan. I bet the Germans were not going to succeed in Switzerland. The important urban centers could have been occupied in, say, 2-4 weeks, but the country, never, not against the Swiss. Close to impossible. And not worth the cost anyway.

[mabadesc]

With regards to Switzerland, I agree completely with Muddyboots and Chander.
I suppose Hitler could have bombed the major cities to pieces, but it would have been extremely difficult to invade the country, given the extremely mountaineous terrain.


Chander said

QUOTE

Western Europe has voiced opposition to the Iraki adventure mainly on principle grounds. Well it is hard for both side to claim the morale high ground so someone must be wrong. The morale challenge is not really well accepted by the Bush admin and the violence unleashed by the US media toward France and Germany is testimony to that...

Hmmm....Chander, I will give you partial credit for your reply :wink:

BUT, each sword has 2 edges. Either both the US and Western Europe acted out of moral principle, or they both acted out of interest - much more likely.
If the US acted out of interest, Western Europe got pissed off because it wasn't in their interest. I don't believe they reacted out of moral indignation. I'm talking about the governments, not the people.

And about the media, well, I'm sure you're right, but the Franco-German media has acted just as viciously on the opposite side.

[MuddyBoots]

When the German Kaiser asked in 1912 what the quarter of a million Swiss militiamen would do if invaded by a half million German soldiers, a Swiss replied: shoot twice and go home.

Switzerland was completely surrounded when France capitulated (1940). No coal, no food - because all able men were under arms. They took in more jews refugees in than the US took refugees.

During the war 33 Swiss were executed for collaborating with the enemy. During the war the Nazi Party was banned in Switzerland. During the war Switzerland shot down German planes with Swiss-purchased German planes. (Germany also donated war planes shortly before the war, and exchanged war planes for one high ranking German prisoner during the war... and the planes were put to use which pissed off Hitler really bad).

Operations Order No. 2 (the first was the mobilization order)

At the border and between the border and army position, the border troops and advance guard must persistently delay the advance of the enemy. The garrisons at the border and between the border and the works and positions making up the defensive front continue resistance up to the last cartridge, even if they find themselves completely alone.

The Swiss were instructed to fight until the ammo for their handguns run out and then to the last drop of blood (the army issued rifles - but the soldiers also carried their own handguns). They were instructed to treat any order to surrender as enemy propaganda:

Under no condition, would any surrender be forthcoming, and any pretence of a surrender must be ignored: If by radio, leaflets or other media any information is transmitted doubting the will of the Federal Council or of the Army High Command to resist an attacker, this information must be regarded as the lies of enemy propaganda. Our country will resist aggression with all means in its power and to the death.

One might think they would have been more than a mouthful for the German war machine.