Picture of the Day - "Progress" in Iraq / Update

[Chandernagore]

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BUT, each sword has 2 edges.  Either both the US and Western Europe acted out of moral principle, or they acted out of interest - much more likely.   If the US acted out of interest, Western Europe got pissed off because it wasn't in their interest.  I don't believe they reacted out of moral indignation.  I'm talking about the governments, not the people.

Well, given that the US gobbled up what interest some European countries might have remaining in Irak, we really had only moral indignation left, bwa ha ha. One half-point for you :roll:

I won't say the governments didn't look a bit at their selfish interest (though a few contracts didn't amount to something much significant for anyone) but there was a greater scheme at stake : the future of international relations. Unilateralism vs multilateralism. Europe feels that the US opened a can of worms to set a precedent that every country can duplicate to justify any agression in the future. A fallback to pre WWII times. And that will make the world less not more secure.

Oh, UN is very very imperfect. Sometimes it blunders. Sometimes it's inefficient or too slow. But I strongly believe it is the way to go for regulating international conflicts because I don't like the alternatives. If some are disenchanted with it, well... it's up to them to stop whining about it, make it work better and improve it. Nobody is better placed than the US to do that and several US presidents knew how to use it. I do not want to believe that mankind cannot evolve beyond unilateral clashes as a way to solve the myriad of problems between nations. If that was the case then I hope another specie will emerge, take our place and kick us out of the cosmic theatre once for all. I'm only half kidding 8)

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And about the media, well, I'm sure you're right, but the Franco-German media has acted just as viciously on the opposite side.

There where some er... excesses as well :wink:

[Geto-Dacul]

MuddyBoots wrote :

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During the war 33 Swiss were executed for collaborating with the enemy. During the war the Nazi Party was banned in Switzerland. During the war Switzerland shot down German planes with Swiss-purchased German planes. (Germany also donated war planes shortly before the war, and exchanged war planes for one high ranking German prisoner during the war... and the planes were put to use which pissed off Hitler really bad).

During the war, there was a Swiss version of Signal magazine available in Switzerland... :wink:

[Chandernagore]

Hu hu. I highly suspect that MuddyBoots is a Swiss.

[MuddyBoots]

Fedayeen payments were late so they decided to rob the bank

What I don't understand is why are there always some bystanders getting shot? Didn't they learn already that gunmen and Americans don't mix well? Or they just like to watch?

[Chandernagore]

A Saudi opinion, for a change :

"We have bred monsters. We alone are responsible for it. I have written as much before my personal tragedy and will continue to do so for as long as it takes. We are the problem and not America or the penguins of the North Pole or those who live in caves in Afghanistan. We are it, and those who cannot see this are the ones to blame."

"Castrated as we are, we look to America. Why? Because they went into Iraq and made a difference. Better or worse is another point. Once America has demonstrated its willingness to do something, the moral imperative is that it should not stop at the first station along the road. The majority of us are sick and tired of this carnage and President Bush, wrong on just about everything else, is right on this one. Does he have the (courage) to finish the job? I wonder."

[Dénes]

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What I don't understand is why are there always some bystanders getting shot? Didn't they learn already that gunmen and Americans don't mix well? Or they just like to watch?

Many of those "bystanders" were actually shot in their own houses or yards. Just imagine when a heavy tank shell misses its hard target (if any) and plows through mud-walled houses...
I also noticed from the few available footages that the Americans shoot indiscriminately at everything that moves, with plently of ammo being spent in the process. No wonder there are relatively many civilian casualitites in Irak.

[Victor]

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Don't forget the economical blocus that N.Korea is obliged to support from Western countries. The only foreign aids that they receive are from China. As for the military budget, they don't have a choice here. US troops are still in S.Korea, and N.Korea must modernize her army.

The economical issue has been responded already.
The no choice issue. Once you apply again double standards. Why is it wrong for the American leadership to spend a lot of money on their military (thus enforcing their position) and not wrong for the North Korean leadership. I personally do not see North Korea as the lamb, but rather as the wolf.

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As I said before (and even Chandernagore 'approved' it), the Americans are not a nation, they are a decentralized melting-pot... A conglomerate of people, the first \"global society\"..

It is irrelevant if you or I consider them a nation. They consider themselves a nation and they act in what way they think their nation's interest is best served. How is this different from the nationalist state you like.

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I would surely complaign, but this thread was about Iraq.

Your New Topic button functions. Nobody is stopping you from expressing your opinion on the subject. :wink:

[Geto-Dacul]

Victor wrote :

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The no choice issue. Once you apply again double standards. Why is it wrong for the American leadership to spend a lot of money on their military (thus enforcing their position) and not wrong for the North Korean leadership.

It is obvious that North Korea is more threatened by an invasion than is USA. So proportionally, you cannot compare US's military investments with Pyongiang's. But when I think about it... I don't care if the Americans spend or not money for their army... What enrages me is that global imperialism policy of their's. I also think that a dialog would be impossible.

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I personally do not see North Korea as the lamb, but rather as the wolf.

Those kind of opinions 'give water to the American mill'... Are there American troops in Korea or Korean troops in America?

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It is irrelevant if you or I consider them a nation. They consider themselves a nation and they act in what way they think their nation's interest is best served. How is this different from the nationalist state you like.

Their action is no more nationalist, but internationalist. If their interests are contradicting mine's, why should I love them? The Soviets too gave to their war of 1941-45 a nationalistic taste...

Getu'

[Chandernagore]

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It is obvious that North Korea is more threatened by an invasion than is USA.

And please who would like to invade North Korea and why ? What was the war of 1950 about ? S Korea invading N Korea or the reverse ? The US presence in S Korea is a result of communist attempt to overthrow a democratic country by force. Do facts never count for anything in your view of the world ? :shock:

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Their action is no more nationalist, but internationalist. If their interests are contradicting mine's, why should I love them?

Tell me sincerely : in what way are your Romanian nationalist interests contradicted by the US today ?

[Der Maresal]

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Der Maresal: Why are you blaming me and accusing me of such things?

What-you talking about? :shock: Nobody is blaming you for anything. Never said you were guilty of anything.
I used "you" as in .."all of you".
Don't be offended.

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You even put my avatar to show how that I'm a mean, war monging, blood thirsty American. Grow up. Did you ever happen to think that I liked the MOVIE!!!!!!!!!!!

Who told you that? :shock: I put the helmet there cause it looked good,
and because i was answering to some of your quotes - not because I want to shoot you! :roll: Now you'r making me feel bad too :cry: - what makes you think that your helmet means you are blood dirsty? Nobody suggested that - you take everything so personally... :oops:
grow up man. In any case, you don't seem to be such a bad guy; - chandernagore and that other buttkisser are much worse.

There were alot of good Americans, especially before World War 2, the entire poppulation was against another world war. I remeber Charles Lindberg, the famous aviator who spoke out against another war. If you are like him, you belong to the group of good americans. But those in power -"then and now"- are still evil, and they represent your Nation- everything they do will reflect as bad on the American people.

It's true, one should not generalize since Americans are from here and there nowadays. It's a multicultural mess, a Babylonian chaos. If you know, in ancient Babylon there was a tower which housed peoples from all corners of the world - they all spoke in their own language and did not understand eachother. Everybody lived by their own laws, -it was a mess, and it all fell apart. I hope like you,- things will get better - but I fear it is too late for that - and that things will get worse. [for you country]
My duty now is that the same thing does not happen to mine - and to my continent - That's why me must save what is left. [as if enough has not been lost already ]

First we talked about the war, then we got to 'Depleated Uranium' bullets - and from that we talked about War Crimes and we got to WWII and after.. :roll:
Let's get back to discussing the Situation in Iraq.
This forum has gone through too much already.

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..... Unlike you or Der Maresal, interestingly, there were many then that did not have grudges against the Americans even though they lost someone close.

1st) Never even mentioned romania in my arguments. I don't have a grudge for having bombed military targets - I hold more of a grudge on those "mabadesc" type Romanians who believed the US would have opened a second Front in the balkans and we would not be handed over to the Russians. Bull!! Fantasies, naive thinking - They handed our head over on a Silver Platter!
Of course there were always Romanians who because of their dislike of the Russians naturally loved the Americans. It is these people who see things in Back and White. [If the Russians are bad, therefore Americans must be good :roll: ] ..... :roll:
I see them both in Black,
The Russians did what they did, we deserved it perhaps - but the treatment we recieved from our Western Friends was totally undeserved.
Think about the many good men, political prisonners, generals, officers,legionnaires, intellectuals...who perished in Communist prisons thinking .."dreaming" that the American will some day come and liberate them... they waited a long time. They died there, and nobody came.

That is why I don't expect much from the West to help Romania's Situation today - that is why I'm sceptical that our contruibution in Afghanistan will in the end give us something :cry: - I don't see how America will help this "shitty ex-russian province" [Romania] that I heard one say :x
Another one told me:...("....yeah, that's because nobody has actually heard of it") So weather we are an ex-russian province or an invisible pile of manure long forgotten by history [at least that's how the West sees us]
I don't expect much gold and rewards comming our way. The Westerners don't have friends [not even us] - they only have interests, and we have been chosen there to do their interests. :roll: Cannon-Meat, that's us.

2nd) The bombing of military targets or accidents I don't complain about.
But the bombing of Civilian towns and villages, and killing famillies for the purpose of demoralizing the army at the front or forcing a nation's surrender through such methods I deeply resent.
My grandmother survived the bombing of 4th April of Bucarest, the basement shook from a bomb that exploded at the street corner and leveled a large house there. Not that I hold a grudge against that, - altough the shooting of Parachutes and the lowlevel strafing attacks on
pretty much everything that moved - are evil and pretty much reflect the "qualities" I so dislike - to shoot, destroy, blow things up, explode,..."let'm have it" Cowboy attitude. :x
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I personally do not see North Korea as the lamb, but rather as the wolf.

..and you said I saw things in Black and White..
No - of course the US is the Lamb... :roll:


How about they are both wolves?

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right.. :roll:

[Geto-Dacul]

Chandy wrote :

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And please who would like to invade North Korea and why ?

The Americans would like to invade North Korea, if possible with minor losses. Why did the Americans (and their allies) invaded Iraq? Nearly the same is aplyable for Korea... North Korea is a good place for new military bases and minerals.

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What was the war of 1950 about ? S Korea invading N Korea or the reverse ?

North&South Koreans are the same people... North Koreans attacked the American occupiers in the South.

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The US presence in S Korea is a result of communist attempt to overthrow a democratic country by force. Do facts never count for anything in your view of the world ?

South Korea DEMOCRATIC state in 1950?! You must be joking!
Will this ring a bell?
http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/4/21/72435

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Tell me sincerely : in what way are your Romanian nationalist interests contradicted by the US today ?

Today, the CIA is master in Romania. Romania could be in the future a satelite (if she isn't yet!) of America, a pawn on the general map of operations and interests.

Getu'

[Chandernagore]

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The Americans would like to invade North Korea, if possible with minor losses... North Korea is a good place for new military bases and minerals.

If North Korea is a good place for the Americans then the Atlas desert is like Marineworld.

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North&South Koreans are the same people...

But 2 different nations at that time.

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North Koreans attacked the American occupiers in the South.

You're kidding ? Drop your communist history book, Getu.

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South Korea DEMOCRATIC state in 1950?!   Will this ring a bell? http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/4/21/72435

I do not see anything about political system in that article. It talks about how S Koreans dealt with N Koreans. That is : the same way N Koreans dealt with S Koreans. War is not nice.

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Today, the CIA is master in Romania. Romania could be in the future a satelite (if she isn't yet!) of America, a pawn on the general map of operations and interests.

I will let our Romanian members discuss this. Nothing I could tell would have any weight.

[Chandernagore]

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Candernagore and that other buttkisser are much worse.

Is that all you could summon ? Try again, der Maresal, I'm sure you can do much better.

Very nice pics of wartime propaganda, der Maresal. You see some lambs grow teeth when you mess up with them.

[Der Maresal]

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Is that all you could summon ? Try again, der Maresal, I'm sure you can do much better.

Nah, we don't want to touch sensible political matters... like zionism.

:wink:

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On the contrary ! We can talk about it as much as you want

not on this forum pal - :wink: They will ban me - but you, they will let you stay..

[Chandernagore]

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Nah, we don't want to touch sensible political matters... like zionism.  :D

On the contrary ! We can talk about it as much as you want