Picture of the Day - "Progress" in Iraq / Update

[Chandernagore]

[quote]Maybe Chad got it first [/quote]

:laugh:

I prefer the first draft that you can see in my logo.

[Florin]

I know all of you keep in touch with the news, but anyway... Check these links.

http://newmedia.leeds.ac.uk/papers/vp01.cf...r=891&paper=908

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2949282.stm

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/0...rq.britain.pow/

[Florin]

Chandernagore,

In your new symbol (i.e. flag proposal) some details are not clear, due to resolution of details and size of image.
Are the stars with 5 corners or with 6 corners? 8)

[Florin]

Anytime I am thinking all this mess around liberty of information and freedom of press cannot plunge lower, the facts contradict me...

Check this link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/30/business...;partner=GOOGLE

[Indrid]

have you guys seen the way the iraki war prisoners are treated by the "liberating " army of the coalition? makes me sick!

just imagine what happens to those in guantanamo.....

Shame USA

[mabadesc]

Yes, I was quite disappointed and angry to see those photos. Completely unacceptable...

It's a shame that 17 redneck soldiers will negatively affect the image of an entire army. It's a good thing they are already suspended and under investigation. I hope they are punished severely.

The same thing goes for the UK soldiers (I don't know if you heard of the similar behavior of a few British guards).

However, you're wrong to assume that the same thing goes on at Guantanamo. These 17 guys were mostly ignorant, untrained reservists with no experience in guard duty. The Guantanamo camp is run by trained professionals and is under constant scrutiny. I doubt that such stuff goes on over there, too (and I truly hope it doesn't).

[Chandernagore]

That would be the best case scenario.

I also heard that it was not the result of a few rednecks but the result of a widespread and deliberate policy to "soften up prisoners" due to be interrogated by civilian contractors (not bound by war conventions).

The rednecks I dont care. No army can avoid that. But the second possibility sounds a lot more disturbing (to say the least).

But what do we know ?

And who are those people who accepted to be taken in pictures like that ? They must have been either...
1. complete idiotic morons
2. or very confident than nothing wrong could happen to them.

[PanzerKing]

No, they were fed up with seeing their fellow countrymen blown to pieces and shot at while "giving thei Iraqis' their country back". I'm not condoning it, but I'm not surprised one bit. They acted out of pure anger and frustration. It's just a bad situation all around.

[Chandernagore]

Ok. Let's add :
3. acting out of frustration due to impossible or contradictory tasks.

But, I would say, it doesn't look very likely. The guys on the pictures don't look frustrated but very proud of themselves. It doesn't mesh well with the 17 rednecks theory either because if only 10% of the army is frustrated that give us 15.000 rednecks :roll:

[Indrid]

this statistic is absolutely gruesome because i believe it has a very good chance of being right. 10 percent may well be the minimum. let us hope that it is not 50 percent. there was a discussion about guantanamo some while ago, about the condition of the prisoners , how they are chained ang gagged and blindfolded and about info of torture in prisoner interogation.

i even wonder where does the american army stand? is it a liberating army or a invading army? if 51 percent of the iraki population dislike american troops, the democratic way is to leave, right? but theory has long since fled the house of congress...............

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

i even wonder where does the american army stand? is it a liberating army or a invading army? if 51 percent of the iraki population dislike american troops, the democratic way is to leave, right? but theory has long since fled the house of congress..........

Well, Indrid... I ask myself too : what is the American strategy ?

Is it to turn Irak into a US oil colony like good old British Empire did ? Then you need to level the opposition and be ready to go into rebelling cities, beat the shit out of the insurgents and pay the price. In that light it was an error not to fight for Falluja. And 150.000 troops is surely not enough for a country like Irak.

Is it to turn Irak into democracy and give it back to Irakis ? Then what's the point in starting a big fire in Falluja, backing off and nominating an ex Baathist Republican Guard general to control the flaming situation. What's the point in blocking elections when the likely scenario is an islamic win, what's the point in replacing Baath party torturers by US army frustrated torturers in Iraki prisons ? What's the point in reconstructing city A while shelling city B ? etc etc.. I can't make any sense out of it.

Bush seems to wander between two strategies and, as a result, excels in none :cry:

I believe the Neocons put all their eggs into a leaking bag. They counted on the Irakis acclaiming the US army liberators and throwing flowers until the last of the soldier has left the soil of the Irak Democracy.

Now that it is not happening they don't have much of a clue what to do. The US is bogged down into a war of nationalist resistance from which the "stay the course" mantra allows no withdrawal. Of course it's also about denying the nature of the enemy by constantly hammering about the "war against terror". So anyone resisting occupation can only be a "terrorist", not a patriot. It's like when the US renamed the Viet Minh into Viet Cong to hide the real face of the enemy to suit internal politics. Artificial and unconvincing.

I think that only the withdrawal of Bush (and the hawks in his entourage) by the American elector can create the dynamic for an acceptable disengagement.

And where are the WMDs for God's sake !!?

[Chandernagore]

What the US could do is bug out one night while every one is sleeping, dragging Saddam in a bag. When the sun rises... bingo ! No more US army, no more Saddam. Mission accomplished. Declare victory, pretend Irak is ruled by Irakis like a respectable democracy and win re-election 8)

[dead-cat]

as usually the culprits are not frontline soldiers, but rear echelon personell and military "police".

one of this "heroes", sgt. "Chip" Frederick, "has been a correctional officer for six years at the Buckingham " ( http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-re...s/s_191879.html ).

he said "his unit wasn't provided proper training and equipment" and they never saw a copy of the geneva convention. (same source and BBC).

excuse me!
so you're basically a prison warden and the default behaviour is, unless told otherwise (i.e. "proper training") to shove broomsticks up the prisoners anuses?
i wonder what he meant by "proper equipment". possibly cat o'nine tails?

"I can assure you Chip Frederick had no idea how to humiliate an Arab until he met up" said his lawyer ( same article, pittsburghlive).
i'd roll on the floor laughing if it wasn't such a sad story.

but it goes on in the same enraging way:
"That probably is a violation of some directive, yes it is, I would agree, but if you use it to get information that's going to save American lives, I have to weigh those two things," said his lawyer (same article).

so some of the most basic principles of human rights are "some directives"?

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

so some of the most basic principles of human rights are \"some directives\"?

Yeah, "directives" to behave like a human being. Holy Jesus. Perhaps the lawayer needs a broomstick in his bottom too (to clean his brain).

The dirtiest part is that the true price will be paid by those good and honest civilians and soldiers that will be unlucky enough to be captured in the future. Nice.

:blbl:

[Alexandru H.]

The WMDs are in Syria, the world stands behind us 100% (except for those filthy French, Germans and Spanish, not to mention the Russians), the Iraqis are on our side, Saddam is playing his harmonica in prison, ONU will be shipped out of America, we will teach everyone to dance as we say...

Everything is perfect in the little town of USA...

That's right, its sunday morning in our quiet little white-bred redneck mountain tooooowwwwwwn!