Picture of the Day - "Progress" in Iraq / Update

[Chandernagore]

Yes, you can only count on yourself.

The French ? Ungratefull bastards ! Cheese eating surrender monkeys ! We saved their asses twice in one century and they hate us. After Irak, France is next on the invasion list.
The Germans ? We leveled their country worse than ground zero to bring them democracy. We taught them to hate war, for God's sake ! And when we need them to fight with us they say "no war". Disappointing.
The Spanish ? Disgusting turncoats cowed into submission by the terrorists. In a true democracy you are not supposed to listen to your own people but to follow the great leader.

We are not supported.

[Chandernagore]

Point blank fire : roadmap no better than Irak.

Around 50 retired US diplomats have written to US President George Bush to complain about America's policy towards the Middle East.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3681641.stm

Oh, boys, the neocon raft is paddling hard into the tornado.

Their finest hour ? ... or Swan song ?

[dragos]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_ob...-name_page.html

It is unbelieveable...

[dead-cat]

QUOTE

The French ? Ungratefull bastards ! Cheese eating surrender monkeys ! We saved their asses twice in one century and they hate us. After Irak, France is next on the invasion list.

we need a new TV-show, something like "Faulty Towers": "don't mention LaFayette on US soil"

[Indrid]

QUOTE

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_ob...-name_page.html It is unbelieveable...

for heaven`s sake......give the iraki insurgents guns, god dammit!!!!!!!!!

go Sadr! long live Saddam!!!!!!! give weapons to the people in Fallujah!

if anybody here does not like it, they can shove a broomstick up their ass!

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

go Sadr!  long live Saddam!!!!!!!  give weapons to the people in Fallujah! if anybody here does not like it, they can shove a broomstick up their ass!

No Indrid, no. Your government is already licking Bush' [you know what]. You can't use the broomstick at the same time :laugh:

Well maybe it's time for a pause. We have to realize that these horrible treatments are still not the result of a broad policy and are not condoned by the (high level) military hierarchy nor by the political steering wheel in US or Britain.

The difference with non democratic countries is that here you get to see the pictures. What it shows however is that "War doesn't turn boys into men. It turns men into animals".

[mabadesc]

Chandernagore wrote:

QUOTE

Well maybe it's time for a pause. We have to realize that these horrible treatments are still not the result of a broad policy and are not condoned by the military hierarchy nor by the political steering wheel in US or Britain.   The difference with non democratic countries is that here you get to see the pictures.

I've been waiting to see how crazy and absurd this discussion would get before someone made a reasonable comment. Chander was the first to do it....
I like your style, Chander. First, you participate in the "conspiracy", instigation-style comments, you draw people in to make similar statements (only these people are serious about what they're saying), and in the end you bring it back down to Earth and to reality.

Tricky, tricky! :loool: :nope:
But I have to admit I like the technique. It makes for interesting reading...

[dragos]

QUOTE

Well maybe it's time for a pause. We have to realize that these horrible treatments are still not the result of a broad policy and are not condoned by the (high level) military hierarchy nor by the political steering wheel in US or Britain.

I believe this kind of scenes appear in a prolonged state of conflict. The US did not want a prolonged state of conflict (see Vietnam). The period of professional strikes and state of the art operations is over. Now it came to the war of nerves. No matter what, the Americans botched it :roll:

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

But I have to admit I like the technique.  It makes for interesting reading...

There's nothing wrong in stiring up the pot a little bit: a little Chili here, a little gunpowder there, one ounce of Indrid (the detonator), shake....

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

I believe this kind of scenes appear in a prolonged state of conflict... Now it came to the war of nerves. No matter what, the Americans botched it.

Yes it's probably the result of several elements coming together : things dragging on without end, stress of guerilla warfare, intelligence services more interested in informations than conventions. A bad general trend.

Besides I'm sure the French are selling weapons to Sadr behind the American's back ! Sneaky French...

[PanzerKing]

QUOTE

Yes, you can only count on yourself. The French ? Ungratefull bastards ! Cheese eating surrender monkeys ! We saved their asses twice in one century and they hate us. After Irak, France is next on the invasion list. The Germans ? We leveled their country worse than ground zero to bring them democracy. We taught them to hate war, for God's sake !  And when we need them to fight with us they say \"no war\". Disappointing. The Spanish  ? Disgusting turncoats cowed into submission by the terrorists. In a true democracy you are not supposed to listen to your own people but to follow the great leader.   We are not supported.

Wonderful statement chap! Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Florin]

QUOTE

....... Then you need to level the opposition and be ready to go into rebelling cities,  beat the shit out of the insurgents and pay the price. In that light it was an error not to fight for Falluja...... Then what's the point in starting a big fire in Falluja, backing off and nominating an ex Baathist Republican Guard general to control the flaming situation.......

Chandernagore,

I read all your comments, not only what I highlighted. You have good points, and I appreciate them. Returning to what I quote from you...
Maybe the Americans would beat the insurgents in the way they always did (leveling the city from air, civilians and fighters altogether), but the images transmitted by the Arab press correspondents, especially by Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabya, to be seen at TV by the rest of the world (and even in the US, with the usual one week delay), harassed the American effort much more than most of the people realize.
That's why one of the first American demand when the negotiations started was for the Arab correspondents to leave. One day, when all this will be past tense, those Arab TV correspondents may be considered as contributing to turning point in history. Because from now on, nothing will be as it was before April (before Fallujah, before Al-Sadr, before the prisons scandal).

[mabadesc]

QUOTE

No matter what, the Americans botched it

Yes Dragos, you are correct, and I admit it fully. They did botch it (the UK, too) with the mistreatment of the prisoners. It was wrong to do...

But I think it was an unfortunate, isolated case of 17 jerks getting out of hand. They are being punished, and everybody - US military command, Bush, the entire country - expressed outrage and regret that this happened.

I just don't think that this was representative of the entire US Army. I don't think Rumsfeld issued an order saying "Take those prisoners and make them simulate sexual acts on each other, or make them form a pyramid naked". First off, it's not credible.
Secondly, and more important, the mistreatment of prisoners is against US political interests in Irak. It was easy to see that it would only bring negative repercussions, so I think that even if military command wanted for some odd reason to mistreat these guys, they wouldn't have taken the risks, because they far outweigh any benefits (actually, I don't see any benefits).

Having said that, I hope they lock these 17 guards up and throw away the key for a long period of time.

[mabadesc]

QUOTE

Maybe the Americans would beat the insurgents in the way they always did (leveling the city from air, civilians and fighters altogether)...

That's completely false, Florin, not to mention it lacks any supporting data.

It is true that Americans have made plenty of tactical and strategic mistakes (the last one being the soft - hesitant - way they acted in Fallujah).

Nevertheless, your statement is quite the opposite from the truth.
The truth is, since 1991, i.e. in the last 3 wars (Gulf War I, Afghanistan, Gulf War II), the US/UK coalition have shown more concern in avoiding civilian casualties than any other army in recent history. They have at times gone so far as to deliberately choosing a less efficient operation in favor of a more efficient one because the latter posed the risk of greater civilian deaths.

Unfortunately, civilians do die in wars, especially in urban warfare, but the US has done everything possible to avoid this.
If you want examples of the military not caring about civilian deaths, you should rather think of Israel, Stalingrad, the bomb raids over London, Dresden, and Berlin, Vietnam (both sides), Cambodia, etc...

[Chandernagore]

Oh, Mabadesc and Florin "have" at it :mrgreen: I like this subject, there is plenty of intelligent and stupid things to say. Posting people are colourfull and seem gloriously motivated.

On my part I indulge a bit in fence sitting. One shot here, one kick there. I can't hide my sympathy for the US military (minus a few morons)and general principles and values sustaining a great democracy. On the other hand I'm wary of what Bush & Co are doing with it, that is, basically, pissing off the whole world as they proceed to annihilate 30 years of diplomatic work, wondering where all of this will end. Irak will have a decisive influence on the elections. First time in my life I will be scotched on TV to watch the results of US election . It could have ugly consequences :|