Picture of the Day - "Progress" in Iraq / Update

[Geto-Dacul]

mabadesc wrote :

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There has been no study to prove they provide serious harm. Chernobyl - you can't even start to compare the two. Different types of radiation, different events. What's the next step? You'll compare a DU shell with a tactical nuclear weapon? Show me proof.

I know a factory in Montreal which makes the shells for the American Army... If you are interested, I may send you the name of the company and the address. Since my father works in air conditionning field, he installed 2 air conditionning systems for this factory. He knows very well the methods of fabrication of those shells, because he was involved in designing the air cond. systems. THEY ARE USING DU IN THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE ALLUMINUM SHELLS. The Canadian Government asked the factory to increase the fresh air intake for the working area in order to dilute the highly nocive emanations from the process, because it is very dangerous for the people working there. It is classified by the National Building Code and Commission for the Health and Security in the working places as VERY POISONING ATMOSPHERE. If even in not exploded stage, it's so dangerous, how come you would claim that it isn't harmfull? :!: There are studies, in USA and Canada proving that even in production stage they are very harmfull... So imagine when using them as weapons!...

Think about it!

Getu'

[inahurry]

The radiation is not of different type, they are all the same – alpha, beta, gamma. The sources differ. I’m not sure what the US army understands by depleted uranium what are the specifications etc. Maybe they are accessible and verifiable by third parties. I don’t know and wasn’t very interested. Maybe if I lived in Banat I would.

Alpha particles have low penetrability and die quickly. But we’re dealing with countless little DU sources of radiation here. The water and soil infestation is much more dangerous than “poisoned” air inhalation. The human body is incredible fragile, The percent of damage may be minuscule compared to the whole number of cells and yet irreversible, often lethal, for sure damaging at a genetic level, meaning – forget about having children. Digested, either from water or indirectly from plants you can imagine the damage especially if it’s extended over a longer period of time. There is not only the radioactive dimension that needs to be known but also more classical chemical links that may, or may not, form in sufficient number so the spreading of the infestation from the countless DU shells shot could be dangerous or harmless. History has proved the constant lowering of the admissible levels of all kinds of radiation exposure, usually after clinical investigations over long time frames so I tend to be skeptical when I hear there is no danger or a minor one when radioactive sources are involved. There are quite a few reports from the areas where this ammunition was used massively about the effects on people living there. Is this just propaganda, I doubt it. Even if it were a general outcry it won’t matter as long as the ammunition proves efficient in battle. Is this type forbidden under Geneva convention ? Fragmentation bombs are and Americans used them over Baghdad.

Btw, nuclear weapons, after the initial blast, thermal and mechanical shock, burst of high concentration radiation continue to kill, often over decades, the harm and the length of time varies with the chemical compound. I suppose the question is, how much depleted is the depleted uranium. I wouldn’t take my chances living in an area where who knows how many shells were shot and I bet neither of you would accept the risk based on what US army says.

[dead-cat]

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The radiation is not of different type, they are all the same – alpha, beta, gamma.

i'm afraid they are not. alpha radiation emmits a helim nucleus (positive), beta an electron (nagative) and gamma high energy photons. definetly different masses/electrical charges/energy are involved.
however, inside of a nuclear reactor we have another problem: neutron radiation. this one can only be stopped by concrete, while for the other 3 electromagnetic fields and/or lead are enough for shielding

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Btw, nuclear weapons, after the initial blast, thermal and mechanical shock, burst of high concentration radiation continue to kill, often over decades,

then i don't understand how there are still quite alot of ppl living today in Nagasaki or Hiroshima.

[Chandernagore]

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then i don't understand how there are still quite alot of ppl living today in Nagasaki or Hiroshima.

I think he simply meant that the effect of the initial irradiation may cause people to die several years later.

[mabadesc]

Getu, you did raise some relevant points:

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THEY ARE USING DU IN THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE ALLUMINUM SHELLS

If you mean in the projectile itself, that's correct. DU is used not because of its extremely low radio-active properties, but because of its armor-penetration qualities and its hardness as a material. I don't know why they use it in the shell casings. Maybe because the projectile needs a higher charge, and this prevents the casing to explode. I would be interested in finding out, though, why they're used in the aluminum shells.

Regardless, I hope you agree with me in saying that DU ammunition was conceived and used primarily for its armor-penetration efficiency, not to provide radioactivity. That would be a waste of money, and there are more efficient ways to poison people with radioactivity (i.e., a nuclear bomb).

QUOTE

The Canadian Government asked the factory to increase the fresh air intake for the working area in order to dilute the highly nocive emanations from the process, because it is very dangerous for the people working there.

If the environmentally-stringent Canadian government allows DU shells to be manufactured in Canada at all, then this just further reassures me about the safety of this material.

Also, think about it: this is a material that according to others on this thread kills people with radioactive rays. And all Canada does is increase the *fresh air intake* in their factory? It hardly seems like a radical measure...

Anyway, good points. If you find out more about the factory, keep us posted...

[mabadesc]

Inahurry, you also made a very good point about DU:

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Is this type forbidden under Geneva convention ? Fragmentation bombs are and Americans used them over Baghdad.

I don't know if they are forbidden or not, but it would be relevant to find out. If someone knows the answer, please post it.

Regards.

[Chandernagore]

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this is a material that according to others on this thread kills people with radioactive rays.

The material's radioactive level, which is otherwise rather low, has a serious tendency to peak when put under temperatures of several thousands degrees, like it happens when a projectile hits armor. By that time I doubt it is "depleted" anymore.

[dead-cat]

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however, inside of a nuclear reactor we have another problem: neutron radiation. this one can only be stopped by concrete, while for the other 3 electromagnetic fields and/or lead are enough for shielding

sorry, this is utter bullsh*t, i looked at the wrong diagram
of course neutrons can be stopped by lead only, not concrete.

grrrrrr

[Chandernagore]

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I don't know if they are forbidden or not, but it would be relevant to find out

They are not. But several top radio biologists advocate a ban, at least until the effects are fully measured and understood. Unfortunately, as far as I know, none of them is American, therefore the warning doesn't ring so loud in the pentagon.

Moreover even unexploded DU shells might contain some amount of radioactive isotopes (like U236) or neptunium resulting from imperfect fabrication process. It's also worth noting that, if the Army hangs to it's positions, the US navy has choosen to withdraw DU from it's arsenal on health ground. Mmm... a house divided :wink:

[dead-cat]

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Moreover even unexploded DU shells might contain some amount of radioactive isotopes (like U236) or neptunium resulting from imperfect fabrication process.

uhhh... i doubt that. U236 is not a naturally occuring isotope and is created through neutron capture by U235 during the fission process.
as i said, it doesn't occur naturally, only in reactors.

DU contains mainly U238 with a very low (thus depleted) concentration of U235 (bout 0.2%).

there might be speculations that DU comes from reprocessed reactor fuel, but i guess that'd mean it must contain plutonium as well.

[mabadesc]

Chander, dead-cat,

I remember reading a study about the amount of various rays emmitted by DU. I'll try to find it and post it....it was very "statistical".

By the way, something I forgot to mention, the *hull* of the Abrams tank is made of a material that contains DU. This was done because DU is very resistant to tank guns (that's why it's also used in tank ammo).

Well, we're still disagreeing, but this thread is finally becoming interesting because we can lead a civilized discussion and learn from each other. The "distractions" seem to have gone away. :wink:

[Chandernagore]

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there might be speculations that DU comes from reprocessed reactor fuel, but i guess that'd mean it must contain plutonium as well

It does. But I cant' find quantitative information as to what it amounts. There is no solid proof available. In what condition where the measurements done ? On what sample ? I just wanted to precise there are 2 reasons why DU is suspected actually. But post impact alpha emission is by far the most important.

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because we can lead a civilized discussion and learn from each other. The \"distractions\" seem to have gone away.

Right Mabadesc but I also fear we're a little bit off topic

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By the way, something I forgot to mention, the *hull* of the Abrams tank is made of a material that contains DU

If I was a tanker this would be of some concern to me. Well armor is meant to protect not irradiate upon impact :?

[dead-cat]

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By the way, something I forgot to mention, the *hull* of the Abrams tank is made of a material that contains DU. This was done because DU is very resistant to tank guns (that's why it's also used in tank ammo).

DU is 1.7 times more dense then lead. it makes a great penetrator rod and also a great armor.

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It does. But I cant' find quantitative information as to what it amounts.

well the way i understood the documentations, it's a byproduct of the U238 enrichment process, not a post-reaction product, that's why i objected the U236 existence, because that isotope comes from the "enriched" chain, not the depleted chain. so it actually should *not* contain any amounts of plutonium. but since we don't have any reliable data...

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There is no solid proof available. In what condition where the measurements done ? On what sample ? I just wanted to precise there are 2 reasons why DU is suspected actually. But post explosion ahpha emission is by far the most important.

fair question. i have no idea. i'm not a nuclear scientist (IANANS) and since data is scarce at best...

however one thing i don't get. why should the post "explosion"(what explosion do you mean?) alpha emission be different?

[Thomas]

Things are becoming ghoulish in Iraq. Yesterday a patrol from the famous US 101st AB-division received small arms fire and crashed to a brick wall, afterwards Iraqi teenagers stormed the car – both mutilating the bodies (it is unknown whether the soldiers were dead when this began) and robbing all possessions from the car and bodies.

Needless to say this grisly event shows that the circle is now complete. We can now draw parallels to the crimes against the German troops in France 1944, most notably those at Tulle and Oradour, where German soldiers were savagely mutilated and lynched in a same manner. The blame of these incidents fully lies with the “partisans” – unlawful fighters without too much concern for moral or warfare regulations. These terrorists have as aim to start hate against the occupying force by attacking soldiers, triggering a response which will obviously be negative for anyone involved. In Iraq the hate was already present when the American forces moved in, so not much was needed to get emotions running high enough to get to these crimes.

The Americans for their part are trapped in their own ignorance – after WWII they changed the Geneva Convention so that these illegal murderers (back then the “resistance” was good friends with the Amis and Tommies) now have rights and cannot be executed when caught anymore. As we have already seen at Guantanamo Bay, the Americans certainly seem to have a very dubiously selective way of deciding who are “the great resistance fighters” or “the terrorists”. Maybe they can develop a game: “Name that fighter!”, where players have to connect terms like freedom fighters, partisans, guerrillas, insurgents, rebels et cetera to the right picture. The American way of judging international situations is becoming hypocritical, and certainly their hearthy laughs and winks at the "resistance" in France/Belgium 1944 must taste quite sour now!

Despite the fact that I’m no fan of Bush and his actions, I deeply deplore the actions against these soldiers. Being lynched and desecrated like this is unworthy of any human being, especially soldiers who are there – after all is said and done – there to help the Iraqis.

Below are images and experts from an AP press article.







Iraqi Teens Pummel Bloodied U.S. Soldiers
Mon Nov 24, 3:59 AM ET
By MARIAM FAM, Associated Press Writer

MOSUL, Iraq - Iraqi teenagers dragged two bloodied U.S. soldiers from a wrecked vehicle and pummeled them with concrete blocks Sunday, witnesses said, describing the killings as a burst of savagery in a city once safe for Americans.

(...)
About a dozen swarming teenagers dragged the soldiers out of the wreckage and beat them with concrete blocks, the witnesses said.
"They lifted a block and hit them with it on the face," said Younis Mahmoud, 19.
(...)
Initial reports said the soldiers' throats were cut. But another witness, teenager Bahaa Jassim, said the wounds appeared to have come from bullets.
"One of the soldiers was shot under the chin and the bullet came out of his head. I saw the hole in his helmet. The other was shot in the throat," Jassim said.
(...)
Television footage showed the soldiers' bodies splayed on the ground as U.S. troops secured the area. One victim's foot appeared to have been severed.

[Chandernagore]

why should the post "explosion"(what explosion do you mean?) alpha emission be different?

I mean the shell hitting armor and bringing the stuff to extremely high temperatures. Different emission not, but increased.