Gheorghe Rasoviceanu, military career, biography(family,death)

It would have been preferably if you would have created two separate topics as there are two separate subjects.

Regarding Rasoviceanu, the kind of information you want is something that most likely only relatives or friends would know (personal details), except if there was a book published about him in the inter-war era. I am sorry that you have a difficult time understanding this. So if you are really interested about him, why not do some research on your own, because clearly in a couple of days nobody is able to tell you what was the name of Rasoviceanu's wife?

The file in the Military Archives, if ti exists, might be able to give some useful insight on his military education and career as mabadesc already said. It is not impossible to gain access to it. Just say you are researching his life and career for a book and be sure that the archive personnel will be very helpful.

I will take the remark about "those sleeping on the pillows of the archives to make money out of them by publishing books" as an extremelly bad joke. None of the published authors I know in this field gain money from the books they publish and it's something they do out of pure passion. It is hard enough to even recuperate the money spent on publishing the book, let alone have a profit. And belive me, it is not that pleasant inhaling all the dust and browsing endlessly through thousands of meaningless documents in search of something relevant. Not to mention the daily trips to Pitesti, getting up 4:30 am.

Regarding military hospitals in the Romanian Army, one must take into account the level of development of the country in 1916 and the small number of existing physicians. The situation worsened in the winter of 1916-1917 during the retreat to Moldavia and the subsequent epidemics, which the Army did not have the ressources to efficiently fight against. The chapter in the memoirs of general Radu Rosetti dealing with the epidemic in his regiment are very interesting.

Take into consideration the fact that during the Bulgarian campaign of 1913, there was a serious epidemic among the Romanian troops, which leads us to conclude that even in favorable conditions the Army was not well prepared from a medical point of view. A study on this subject would indeed be very interesting especially since many physicians died fighting the epidemic in 1917 and their deeds need to be documented.

Regarding military priests that is another interesting subject about which little was written. I think it isn't appropriate to compare the Romanian Army with the French one, because the people and the situation were extremely different. Priests were essential in the life of the pesants that made up close to 90% of Romania's population in 1916. A massive draft of the priests would have left much more people without their guidance and influence, which was after all a good thing in the occupied part of Romania. Also, because the war was fought somewhat differently, soldiers had easier access to churches behind the frontline. Furthermore, the morale, especially from 1917 on was higher than what the French were experiencing.

As a side note, there was one military priest that received the Mihai Viteazul Order 3rd class for his exploits.

For Victor,
1. Archives in Pitesti
I know very well who was employed there before December 22, 1989. Nobody had access there to look for documents about the bourgeois militarists who died long time ago. Something similar happens now there. And more and more books are written by the same employees because they have access and they know very well there is a demand for such things. The same secrecy, valid also for the civilian archives in each and every county, flooded with people from Securitate.
2. Military Chaplains
You are right about 90% of the army belonging to the peasant class. However, France - a lay country church was secularized afer 1789 had 20.000 military chaplains for an army of about 4.000.000 (you must compare it with Romania: 250 priests for max. 800.000 drafted people). Justin Serbanescu, a monk, was awarded the military order Michael the Brave for fighting bravely against the enemy and leading the soldiers left without their commanders). Out of the 250 military chaplains, over 150 were awardes other military orders (Steaua Romaniei, Coroana Romaniei). There was a Religious Department within the High Command led by Constantin Nazarie, teacher at the Faculty of Theology in Bucharest.
3. Military Sanitary System
Yes, Romania was in a very bad situation. I saw somewhere that two people succeeded to keep the situation under control: a civilian (Dr. Ion Cantacuzino) and a military man (col. Laurentiu Barzotescu), both being responsible for the Sanitary Department within the HIgh Command.

Chaplains and doctors (civilians/military) did a very good job if you consider the very low starting level. French doctors also helped (like Dr. Clunet). Various Allied Red Cross missions also helped. French, Brits and Americans helped too. Queen Marie mentions in her diary that col. Anderson (USA) did a great job (very few people know that the American government played at both ends, helping the Bolchevicks too by sending a Wall Street delegation to pump money in Lenin's hands, and rejecting col. Anderson's official request for financial help needed in Moldova of 1917-1918 ravaged by famine and epidemics; strangest of all is President's Hoover statement that Romanian occupation army looted the pediatric hospital in Budapest of medicine and milk, everything proved later on by curious American journalists to be such a BIG LIE when they interviewed ALL the doctors from the same hospital !).

For gen. Denes,

As regards your reply (I do not know how to move it except by copy/paste !) :
"It's a very long episode, describing based on surviving eye witnesses' accounts how Rumanian army and paramilitary units killed 89 Hungarian civilians in Tărcaia (in Hungarian Köröstárkány) and further 17 in the nearby Grădinari (Kisnyégerfalva) on 19 April 1919, leaving 204 orphans behind (remember, I am only translating what's written in there)"

Very interesting what you say. If you read between the lines, 19th April means fulltime war action (started by the Hungarian offensive on 16th April and followed by the Romanian counter-offensive). Probably they were caught in the red, armed. See what happens in Iraq, a non-declared war where the Americans first kill and later ask for IDs (civilians die there like chickens in a factory - they name them collateral damage). Please do not understand me wrongly, but LONG BEFORE 16th April 1919 Hungarian military and paramilitary forces maimed and killed HUNDREDS of Rumanians, leaving THOUSANS of orphans. Everything is very well documented. These people were not only clerks like notaries, priests, mayors, bank managers, a.s.o., but also NORMAL PEOPLE LIKE US, FARMERS, including WOMEN with breats cut before being raped and killed by bayonette. So, not only Al Qaeda fighters play dirty, by beheading people's heads and playing football with them (see Somalia, Iraq, Afganistan).
However, people must leave hatred aside and build together a better future in an united Europe. If you think the same, everything will be fine. Otherwise, the next generations will pass thru the same nightmares.

Have you ever been to Pitesti after 1990? My personal experience with the people who work there, without being part of the military or in the history branch, was very good. They were very helpful and amiable, without having anything to gain from my part.

Back on topic, yes, it was protosinghel Iustin Serbanescu of the 21st Infantry Regiment who received the MV Order 3rd class by RD 1561/25.06.1918 for the fighting around Predeal and Azuga. IMO a priest must not engage in combat. One cannot be a man of the Church and of war in the same time.

In the Romanian Army there was only one Eastern Orthodox priest per regiment or independent battalion (prior to WW1 each of the vanatori battalions had a priest, but after their transormation into regiments, there was only one priest per regiment). Personally I think that it wasn't priests that the Romanian Army lacked, but munitions, artillery and machine-guns, which were more important.

Btw, are you sure about the 20000 French military chaplains? What is the source? France mobilized 8,000,000 men during WW1. This means that there was one chaplain for every 400 men. And since many where not first line troops, it seems a little excessive to have a chaplain just for a couple of hundred people.

Please stick to the topic and avoid the warcrimes subject in this one, There are sprcial topics for that already opened. Use them.

For 21 inf,
Pietre de hotar is brand-new (2007), being launched the last October in Oradea by local branch of Cultul Eroilor association. Being too new, it's hard to believe you can find it everywhere. Maybe at the Bucharest Military Museum or Bucharest Cultul Eroilor HQs.
It's interesting to know in advance if it offers same info as Kiritescu and Traian Mager, or some additional, previously not known, data.
Thank you.

For Victor,

Yes, believe it or not, France conscripted 20,000 chaplains. Please find below the source, including pictures (UK press). Sorry, I do not know why I could not copy/paste pictures too. Even this article shows clearly that the Men of Good actually fought if there was need for it. My grandfather was on friendly terms with Justin Serbanescu because both of them worked at Cernica Monastery, near Bucharest.

"from T.P.'s Journal of Great Deeds, May 15, 1915
'Crusaders And Cuirassiers'

France's Twenty Thousand Fighting Priests



Priests on the Firing Line

HERE IS A PICTURE

giving aid to a wounded soldier

Yesterday in France it was the crucifix; to-day it is the sword. Yesterday there was peace in the vineyards and harvest; to-day there is War and another kind of harvest, and in the "gathering-in " time a new kind of soldier is playing his part — the priests who from the countless corners of the world have come to lay their lives, if needs be, at the shrine of the France they love. The cloth habit has given place to the uniform of the tirailleur, the cowl to the steel helmet of the cuirassier. From the quiet places of the world these once peaceful ministers of God have come, twenty thousand of them.

20,000 Men in the Fighting Line

The story of this rally will go down to posterity; the deeds will go down to the everlasting glory of France. Twenty thousand horse and foot from Ypres to the last mile that links Alsace to Switzerland. Men of God in the trenches and the dugouts, fighting, dying valorously; healing and helping quietly.
Here is but one instance. In the retreat to the Marne a sergeant priest, who, no doubt, before the War was quietly shepherding his flock, was holding a trench with two men, on which a fearful hail of rifle and machine-gun bullets was pouring. The sergeant ordered the two privates to evacuate the trench, and to join in attacking the enemy with the bayonet. The men refused, saying it was certain death to dare such an act. Thereupon the priest alone leaped from the trench, and in a minute had been struck by several bullets, one near the heart, one that caused him to fall; but, fortunately, he was dragged back into the trench, to be afterwards rescued, and now he is alive .................

HERE IS ANOTHER PICTURE
...

Maybe it's propaganda war, but some truth may be in it. When you compare with the progresses made in WW2 and afterwards (Korea, Vietnam, Afganistan and Iraq). You probably know the there are Romanian chaplains in Iraq and Afganistan right now.

This post has been edited by mateias on December 07, 2007 06:38 pm

For Victor,

France mobilized about 7.5 mil troops in WW1 (not 8 mil as you say). Against about 20,000 military chaplains, there is still a disproportionate rate when you compare it with Romania (about 250 priests for 750,000 troops). However, different sources different number.
I provide for you a list of mobilized and casualties from internet.

Casualties of the First World War

Country Mobilized Killed Wounded Total Casualties
Africa1 55,000 10,000 unknown unknown -
Australia 330,000 59,000 152,000 211,000 64%
Austria-Hungary* 6,500,000 1,200,000 3,620,000 4,820,000 74%
Belgium* 207,000 13,000 44,000 57,000 28%
Bulgaria* 400,000 101,000 153,000 254,000 64%
Canada 620,000 67,000 173,000 241,000 39%
The Caribbean2 21,000 1,000 3,000 4,000 19%
FRENCH Empire* 7,500,000 1,385,000 4,266,000 5,651,000 75%
Germany* 11,000,000 1,718,000 4,234,000 5,952,000 54%
Great Britain* 5,397,000 703,000 1,663,000 2,367,000 44%
Greece* 230,000 5,000 21,000 26,000 11%
India3 1,500,000 43,000 65,000 108,000 7%
Italy* 5,500,000 460,000 947,000 1,407,000 26%
Japan* 800,000 250 1,000 1,250 0.2%
Montenegro* 50,000 3,000 10,000 13,000 26%
New Zealand 110,000 18,000 55,000 73,000 66%
Portugal* 100,000 7,000 15,000 22,000 22%
ROMANIA* 750,000 200,000 120,000 320,000 43%
Russia* 12,000,000 1,700,000 4,950,000 6,650,000 55%
Serbia* 707,000 128,000 133,000 261,000 37%
South Africa 149,000 7,000 12,000 19,000 13%
Turkey* 1,600,000 336,000 400,000 736,000 46%
USA* 4,272,500 117,000 204,000 321,000 8%

*. Statistics cited from The Longman Companion to the First World War (Colin Nicholson, Longman 2001, pg. 248); they have been rounded to the nearest thousand. All percentages are my own; they refer to the % of the total mobilized.
1. The figure of 55,000 refers to soldiers who saw combat; the number of Africans involved as auxiliaries or otherwise is likely to include several hundred thousand. Troops were drawn from Nigeria, Gambia, Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone, Uganda, Nyasaland/Malawi, Kenya and the Gold Coast. Figures for South Africa are given separately.
2. The British West Indies regiment drew men from across the Caribbean, including Barbados, Bahamas, Honduras, Grenada, Guyana, Leeward Islands, St. Lucia, St. Vincent and Trinidad and Tobago; the bulk came from Jamaica.


Citation And Footnotes:


Title: Casualties of the First World War
Author: Robert Wilde
Year: 2003

Best regards.

This post has been edited by mateias on December 08, 2007 10:17 am

Your source for the "20,000" is a wartime newspaper? That isn't what I would call a reliable source for numbers (for the full article with photos - http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War.../Priests_01.htm).

And neither is the Internet site you quoted (the forum rules require the members to also mention the link - keep that in mind for the future). In August 1916 alone Romania had 833,601 men mobilized. In 1917 there were close to 700,000 men mobilized. Given the high losses sustained during the 1916 campaign, the total number of men mobilized by Romania during WW1 is more likely around 1 million, but it surely isn't 750,000.

For Victor,

1. First of all, I am not very good at computers. That's why I was not able to give the proper address. But you are a clever person and you knew very well how to make the best use of everything I provided especially for you.
I already said it was UK press and I gave all the references, from the article's title to more than half of its contents. By the way, I still cannot understand why it's not possible to copy/paste its pictures for the forum when I see other people can do it.
2. Secondly, as regards WW1 mobilized troops and casualties I already told you that there are different sources and different numbers. I provided for you just one of them (first page, first reference on Google). That guy wrote a book in 2003 based on a Longman war encyclopedia. So, this information is already used by the people worldwide. I wonder about your specific figures (very precise, to the last digit, this is amazing !), is it from a Romanian source? If so, very few people would consider it as the absolute truth.
3. Thirdly, believe it or not, I am not interested at all in a contest on who is best in statistics. There are people specialised in this, researchers. All I really want to know is as much as can be found on ROMANIAN MILITARY PRIESTS, and especially about THOSE attached to the 2 battalions of the 9th Hunters Regiment (first with Division 19 in Dobrudja, later with Division 9/19 at Arges-Neajlov, later with Division 9 at Marasesti and on the Dniestr, and afterwards with Hunters 2nd Division in Transilvania and Hungary). You were really good and already gave me a general idea on this matter, but I need more specific details about this Regiment, commanded by Rasoviceanu and where one of the priests was my grandfather. In the second campaign, this regiment cooperated in the Apuseni Mts. with regiments and battalions of Transilvanian troops (Horia, Beius), and all their priests must have been in contact. Do you think it's possible to find their names and some traces of such cooperation (for instance, joint religious services before and after the battles, for Easter mass, etc.)? If so, what sources you have or at least what are your suggestions on how to proceed on finding such information?
Thank you and once more sorry if I make more mistakes in the future.

Yes, the figure was from Romanian sources (article by Petre Otu in no.5/2002 issue of Dosarele istoriei) and believe it or not Romanian sources on Romanian troop strength, casualties etc. are the most reliable sources and not the folklore going around in non-primary sources.

Regarding joint service with priests of the Infantry Regiment from Beius and the Horea Infantry Regiment from Odorhei we must first establish if the two regiments had a military priest in their organziation. These two regiments and the 1st and 2nd Volunteer Regiments (Avram Iancu and Alba Iulia) were not subordinated to any of the two Transylvanian Divisions: 16th and 18th, which had been raised by 27 March 1919. Thus, in lack of further knowledge, it is difficult to establish if these two regiments had an organization similar to the regular Romanian regiments, subsequently if they had a military priest.

Names of the priests could probably be found if any of records of the Beius Regiment survived.

During the night of 18/19 April 1919, when the Ressurection was celebrated, the Rasoviceanu Detachment entered Beius. I suppose that is were mass was performed. On 19 the detachment forced marched to Salonta. You could also try to see if the History and Ethnography museum in Beius has something about the event.

For Victor,
I see you know many details, including daily operations. I kindly ask you to name your source of information (you wrote to me about the night of 15/16 th April when entering Beius, and later that day on marching to Salonta).
This source of yours does also mention the first leg (places, dates) of the route taken by the 9th Hunters Regiment after re-entering the war ? I know there were in Bucharest for the military parade and stayed for a while in Bucharest.
Thank you in advance.

I have to make some points about transylvanian volunteer regiments:

There were 3 regiments raised by romanian transylvanians on 1917-1918:
Reg 1 Inf Turda
Reg 2 Inf Alba Iulia
Reg 3 Inf Avram Iancu (raised in 1918)

This regiments were build up from former romanians who served in AH army and were POWs on Darnitza, Ukraine.

The volunteer regiment Horea (later known as "Beius") was raised in 11 february 1919 ONLY from moti people from Apuseni Mountains.
Order of batle for Volunteers Regiment Horea:
1st batalion "Brad" - comander captain Dragoi Alexandru
2nd batalion "Baia de Cris" - comander major Stoica Mihai - KIA on Dealul Mare
3rd batalion "Abrud-Campeni" - comander major Banciu Sabin.

Each batalion consisted of 4 infantry companies and 1 machineguns company.
The names of batalions designated the areas from where its soldiers were raised.

The Horea infantry regiment of motz volunteers had also, excepting the 3 infantry batalions cited above:
1 regimental HQ
1 field artilery battery
1 company combat engineers
half company of transmissions
1 field gendarme company
1 field hospital
auxiliary services

Total: 120 oficers, more than 4000 soldiers with 4 canons.

This regiment has nothing to do with Odorhei area or regiment

Do you think they had a priest (or several)? If so, was he orthodox or greek-orthodox ? Could you name your source as I see you know very well its OoB at inception. I believe they fought in cooperation and under command of 2nd Hunters Division. Thank you.

This post has been edited by mateias on December 12, 2007 08:52 pm

The source is Traian Mager at http://www.darnick.com/halmagiu/anexe4.html you can find more details about cooperation with 2nd division vanatori.

If I have wenough time and i find the Beius museum opened, being in my way, i'll stop and ask the museum emplyoees about your subject.

Other source of information is a fellow forumist who gave my infos about volunteer regiments 1 Turda, 2 Alba Iulia and 3 Avram Iancu, but for the moment these are all infos.

Thanks a lot.
This is the link to the article describing what happened there. As you can see, there is a mistake (COTUNESCU, instead of COTENESCU). If possible, try to clarify what is their source of information, if they have photos of those events, etc. A copy of everything will be most useful.
Good luck. I am very eager to see the outcome. Once again, thank you.



http://www.oron.ro/bihor/beius___cele__de_..._61_307574.html


PS. Maybe they also have a copy of Pietre de hotar volume 7.