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dragos |
Posted: July 27, 2004 04:08 pm
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Admin Group: Admin Posts: 2397 Member No.: 2 Joined: February 11, 2003 |
The following article was published in Magazin Istoric nr. 8(425), August 2002
Propaganda ungara contra Trianon by Mihaela Orjanu
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Chandernagore |
Posted: July 27, 2004 05:12 pm
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Locotenent colonel Group: Banned Posts: 818 Member No.: 106 Joined: September 22, 2003 |
Very interesting. I can only guess the content but what is the object of all this presumed renting ?
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Dénes |
Posted: July 27, 2004 05:37 pm
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Admin Group: Admin Posts: 4368 Member No.: 4 Joined: June 17, 2003 |
Good question, Chandy... :wink: Dénes BTW, I believe you wanted to say ranting, not renting. |
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dragos |
Posted: July 27, 2004 05:42 pm
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Admin Group: Admin Posts: 2397 Member No.: 2 Joined: February 11, 2003 |
The article presents reports of the Romanian intelligence services (in cooperation with French intelligence) regading the Hungarian anti-Trianon peace treaty propaganda and actions between 1919 and WW2. Such actions were regional destabilization in the territories lost after WW1 and infiltration of bolshevik elements (in 1919), building up an army over the limit permitted by the post-war treaty under the cover of internal militia, revisionism against the Trianon treaty by belligerent or peaceful means (the former being annihilated from start by international interventions), establishing in Budapest of a "Museum of Trianon" which gatheret all kind of revisionist material. As a further step, it was succeeded in rallying the Hungarian minorities in the aimed territories into various organizations for usurpation of the sovereignty. The article also mentions the fact that Hungarian propaganda services were more successful than Romanians', when it was the case.
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Chandernagore |
Posted: July 27, 2004 10:54 pm
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Locotenent colonel Group: Banned Posts: 818 Member No.: 106 Joined: September 22, 2003 |
I think even the Pope would be revisionist if the Vatican lost an equal proportion of it's "territory" to foreign elements.
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Bernard Miclescu |
Posted: July 28, 2004 01:01 am
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Plutonier major Group: Members Posts: 335 Member No.: 53 Joined: July 22, 2003 |
The papauty state was thousands % higher than the Vatican State of nowdays. The Pope and the clergy understood that the Church battle wasn't for the land but for the souls.
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Victor |
Posted: July 28, 2004 05:32 am
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Admin Group: Admin Posts: 4350 Member No.: 3 Joined: February 11, 2003 |
It would also be interesting to know Romanian SSI activity in Northwestern Transylvania between August 1940 and August 1944, as Antonescu was also preparing a military offensive in the event other solutions failed (the plan was called Hypothesis U).
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Carol I |
Posted: July 28, 2004 06:10 am
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General de armata Group: Members Posts: 2250 Member No.: 136 Joined: November 06, 2003 |
This would indeed be quite interesting.
Could you please give more details as it is the first time that I hear about this plan? |
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Chandernagore |
Posted: July 28, 2004 08:03 am
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Locotenent colonel Group: Banned Posts: 818 Member No.: 106 Joined: September 22, 2003 |
Ah My post was not intended as the zenith of historical reference but I think everyone understood what I meant. And I believe it explains Hungary's attitude toward Trianon at least as well as the loghorea from Magazin Istoric nr. 8. |
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dragos |
Posted: July 28, 2004 10:16 am
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Admin Group: Admin Posts: 2397 Member No.: 2 Joined: February 11, 2003 |
logorrhea = excessive talkativeness, esp. when incoherent and uncotrollable. Have you read and undestood the entire article before making such qualifications ? |
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Chandernagore |
Posted: July 28, 2004 11:50 am
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Locotenent colonel Group: Banned Posts: 818 Member No.: 106 Joined: September 22, 2003 |
No. There once was a forum rule dealing with language use to ease communication but perhaps it's gone 8)
Logorrhea refered here essentially to the length of the article. A textbook definition won't work every time Dragos. But, given the subject matter, I guess that the second part is close to the truth as well. Certainly I don't expect a Rumanian newspaper talking about Trianon to be more objective than a Hungarian one :blbl: Let's take an example from your translation : As a further step, it was succeeded in rallying the Hungarian minorities in the aimed territories into various organizations for usurpation of the sovereignty. "usurpation of the sovereignty" ?? Without even entering such discussion as who usurped what in the first place (for some, the crux of the problem), one cannot fail to notice the irony of the suspiciously non objective use of those words in this context. So my question really was : what is this article struggling to prove that hasn't already been buried under a heap of ridiculous arguments countless times in the past ? Is there any need to beat the dead horse anymore ? :laugh: |
dragos |
Posted: July 28, 2004 02:47 pm
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Admin Group: Admin Posts: 2397 Member No.: 2 Joined: February 11, 2003 |
When posting magazine or newspapers article, the poster has not always the time to translate the entire document in English, although hints about the content of article are given in English. The members' own comments must be always written in English.
Since you admitted you didn't understand the article, it is not equitable to go along with guesses, is it? BTW, the source is not a newspaper, but, as the name reads in translation, it's "History Magazine".
The words of the resume are mine. Maybe they are not the most well picked, since I am not yet fluent in English. I used the term of sovereignty in the sense of "a sovereign state or governmental unit", not trying to use pompous words.
I don't recall another topic in this forum to deal with this subject. |
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Chandernagore |
Posted: July 28, 2004 03:18 pm
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Locotenent colonel Group: Banned Posts: 818 Member No.: 106 Joined: September 22, 2003 |
Oh we talked about Trianon in quite a lot of other folders. But perhaps not in a generic sense. Personally I don't hold Trianon in higher esteem than Versailles. As one English historian put it, it was "an insult to good sense, to justice and to pity".
Those were crappy treaties which only prepared the ground for the next war. At Trianon the French were certainly not focused on seeking a sense of historical justice or long term peace and stability. They were exclusively bent on crippling the central powers ability to wage war in the future. To that end, and contrarily to the recommandations of Wilson (see his 14 pts) they were instrumental in mauling two prestigious countries of European history so badly that we are more than a little embarrassed when we are reminded of the event. Now, you know....those were the times. Today such a behaviour would not be understood. Many effects of Trianon are still there. There are good reason not to open the can of worm again. But let's not say that it was anything else than a monumental diplomatical blunder which precipitated the next global conflict and sowed hatred in the region for I dont know how many centuries to go. What can we do ? Say nothing, walk away silently from it... |
dragos |
Posted: July 28, 2004 03:33 pm
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Admin Group: Admin Posts: 2397 Member No.: 2 Joined: February 11, 2003 |
I agree that Trianon was the play of the great powers, and the defeated will always be discontent. Romania had little power of decision and was almost wiped out during the war. But she entered the war to bring back Transylvania to the country, and the outcome of the war was just for her.
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Dénes |
Posted: July 28, 2004 04:03 pm
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Admin Group: Admin Posts: 4368 Member No.: 4 Joined: June 17, 2003 |
Just to annotate a few comments, for the record:
As shown in earlier threads, Rumania did have significant influence with the Allied Powers, particularly the French (see Gen. Berthelot, for example).
I think the "bring back" note is inappropriate here, as Transylvania was not part of Rumania before 1919, not to mention the area West of the so-called "Western Carpathians". Dénes |
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