5 & 18 May 1944 ARR v. USAAF, Question about sources & books

Hello,

I have enjoyed reading this website over the last year or so. Much of it was new to me, so that was very interesting. I have a question. What would be the best books or other sources for information about the ARR in the spring of 1944 versus the US 15th Air Force? I’m most interested in the 5 May and 18 May missions to Ploesti. Unfortunately, outside of English my language skills are limited. Something not too long in French or German I could probably work through given enough time.

I saw on this website the First Fighter Group claimed two B-17s on 18 May 1944. More information on what happened, location etc would be much appreciated. I can provide some information from the U.S. side but little or nothing that is not already public information and mostly related to the 463rd Bomb Group. The 463rd lost 6 aircraft on the 18th. Four were apparently due to German fighters and two to the ARR. The 99th BG lost one, but they were recalled before reaching Ploesti.

Thanks & best regards,

Steve

I compiled this from the Missing Aircrew Reports (MACR).
Time, A/C serial number, MACR number, location, squadron, position in formation as best I can determine, and - notes.
1105 A/C 42-31829 MACR 5434 30 miles (~50 km) SW Ploesti 772th Able 3 - fighter attack.
1105 A/C 42-31791 MACR 5834 30 miles (~50 km) SW Ploesti 773rd probably Charlie or Baker - fighter attack 5 abreast head on
1107 A/C 42-97726 MACR 4916 30 miles (~50 km) SW Ploesti 772th Able 2 - 15 min after target fighters
1108 A/C 42-31803 MACR 5832 44 35’ N 25 E 774th Dog 4 - fighter attack
1113 A/C 42-97540 MACR 5061 44 38’ N 25 50’ E 775th Easy 1 - right wing on fire SW Ploesti by the map)
1155 A/C 42-31825 MACR 5791 43 50’ N 24 38’ E 775th Fox 5 or 6 - fighter attack (this crew still MIA)

These are from Tony Wood’s Luftwaffe claims and casualties: http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/tonywood.htm
JaFü Balkan/Lw.Kdo. Südost:
18.05.44 Oblt. Erich Thomas: 15 2./JG 53 B-17 􀂅RM 3-5: 6.000 m. 11.05
18.05.44 Ltn. Trowal: 4 8./JG 77 B-17 􀂅55.817: 5.500 m. 11.15
18.05.44 Ltn. Weninger: 15 1./JG 53 B-17 􀂅RM 6: 6.500 m. (S.W. Ploësti) 11.15
18.05.44 Uffz. Bremer 6./JG 301 B-17 􀂅QN: 6.000 m. (N.E. Ploësti) 11.15
18.05.44 Ltn. Hans-Joachim Weber 6./JG 301 B-17 􀂅QN: 6.000 m. (N.E. Ploësti) 11.15
18.05.44 Fhj.Ofw. Heinrich Hackler: 64 8./JG 77 B-17 HSS 􀂅55.738: 6.500 m. 11.17
18.05.44 Uffz. Beck: 1 1./JG 53 B-17 􀂅RM 6: 6.500 m.(S.W. Ploësti) 11.20
18.05.44 Uffz. Maximow: 1 9./JG 77 B-17 􀂅54.25: 6.500 m. 11.27
18.05.44 Ofw. Johann Pichler: 42 7./JG 77 B-17 􀂅55.719: 5.500 m. 11.32
18.05.44 Uffz. Büttner: 2 7./JG 77 B-17 􀂅55.756: 5.500 m. 11.33
18.05.44 Ltn. Manfred Eberwein 1./JG 52 B-17 􀂅55.752: no height 12.10

Info about IAR 80-81 fighter groups action on 5 and 18 mai '44 you can find in the IAR-80 book TMA editor ( in french language)

I would add some info to your list for 18 mai '44 (from "B-17 Flying fortress story" by Roger Freeman).

MACR 5434 - Pilot Nosal, crashed near Bucharest, 2 KIA.
MACR 5834 - Pilot Bollei, crashed Gaesti, Rom.
MACR 4916 - Pilot Marek, crashed Turgu (Targu Jiu?)
MACR 5832 - Pilot Kelley, crashed Gaesti, Rom.
MACR 5061 - Pilot Tucker
MACR 5791 - Pilot Menge crashed Corabia, Rom.

On 5 mai '44 a particular B-24 was shot down by IAR-80,81 fighters.
It was the B-24 “Shack Happy” no.41 Sn 42-07744 717BS, 449BG Pilot Morton. MACR 04714, 4 KIA , 6 POW
The crew misindentified the IAR 80 with german FW 190 (no Fw 190 units in april-mai '44 defending Bucharest-Ploesti area)
Below is the story for 5 mai '44 of Sgt. Bob Herres the tail gunner of " Shack Happy":


Under attack

A Focke-Wulf 190 fighter dived out of the sun at 12 o'clock high with its twin machine guns and four, 20 mm cannons blazing away at Shack Happy.

"We were one of the first bombers hit. We lost our rudder controls and couldn't stay in formation," Herres said. "Lt. Alfred Morton, our pilot, almost took another plane down with us when he tried to pull Shack Happy out of the pack. Once our bomber dropped below the formation, he attempted to use the engines to steer the B-24 as he headed home.

"That's when we got jumped by more German fighters. There was a fighter right on our tail shooting at us. It was so close I could see the smoke from its guns as our metal skin began peeling off in sheets from the pounding we were taking from the 190's guns.

"The power in my turret was out. I couldn't shoot at the German fighter without power. I tried cranking my guns up by hand so I could return fire, but that was useless," he said. "One of our waist gunners and the ball-turret gunner had already been killed. I looked back into the waist section of the bomber and the whole inside of the plane was in flames.

"I got out of my turret, grabbed my chute and snapped it on. I burned my face running through the flames to reach the escape hatch in the floor. It's a 2-foot-by-3-foot hole in the center of the plane. I could see the pilot struggling to help the bombardier who had spilled his chute on the flight deck.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on May 06, 2008 02:46 pm

Cantacuzino,

I will see if I can find the IAR-80, 81 book at a library near where I live. One of the local universities may get a copy. It is a long shot but places like Harvard & MIT seem to get virtually everything in print. The price is a bit too steep for me at the moment, especially given the weak US Dollar and strong Euro.

If you were not familiar with the IAR-80, 81, it might be easy to mistake one for an FW-190 since the IAR-80,81 looks very different from a Bf-109. It's a good looking airplane.

I’ve spoken with three gunners from the 463rd who were on the 18 May mission. They actually don’t remember very much. Probably because they were busy firing their weapons and didn’t have much time to look around at what was happening. The Missing Air Crew Reports are also not especially detailed.

Thanks,

Steve

This post has been edited by Steve on May 18, 2008 08:26 pm

hello Steve,

You can find some informations in a book of Jay A Stout "Fortress Ploesti -- the campaign to destroy Hitler's oil". It appeared about 5 years ago in US.

Regards,
BM

This post has been edited by Bernard Miclescu on May 18, 2008 09:02 am

Hello Bernard,

Jay A. Stout's book looks very interesting. I'll definitely pick up a copy.

Thanks,
Steve

steve my uncle william h. olsen ssgt. was shot down on 18may44 i believe it was macr 5791 because the pilot was menge also mia were ssgt ott,and ssgt goodpastor if you have any information about the death of my uncle please send me a post on this forum thank you robert o olsen

Hello William,

If the pilot from your uncle plane's was Menge, than it is the B-17 Sn 42-31825 crashed near Corabia village due to E/A attacks. All crew was MIA.
I don't have any other info but I have attached the map with the location of Corabia (south west of Bucharest) near the Danube river and Bulgarian border.




This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on December 01, 2008 02:51 am

Hi Steve,

Excerpt from the book "Razboiul aerian in Romania" (VasileTudor author)"

From "Jurnalul de operatii" (missons diary) of 1stFG for 18 mai '44:
At 10.20 the alarm was given, at 10.55 the group took off with 19 planes (IAR 80M & IAR81C). In the SM sector the group attacked a B-17 formation at SW Bucharest and shoot down 2 bombers.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on December 01, 2008 02:55 am

One of the victors from that fighter group was Adj. stag. av. Dumitru Chera [victory shared with the patrol].
However, other Rumanian fighter pilots from other units also claimed Liberators shot down that day (altogether 7 more claims were filed). Not to mention the German pilots, of course.

Gen. Dénes

Robert,

Since you are a relative, John Gray of the US Defense POW/MP Office may be able to send you some information. You can find his contact information here: http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/ra...post?id=2121396 (site is http://www.463rd.org). I will go through what I have and post it in a week or so.

Steve

PS The Jay A. Stout book is very good. Not too much specifically about 18 May 1944 as I recall, but covers the entire campaign well.

PPS Thanks for the info on Romanian claims.

This post has been edited by Steve on November 30, 2008 09:00 pm

Robert here is the information that I have based on the MACRs, 775th Squadron History “Allyn’s Irish Orphans”, the proposal for a Presidential Unit Citation, and Douglas Ackley’s “Twenty Seven and a Half Missions in the 15th Air Force”. It may not be any more than what you already know. There is very little in the MACR.

The 15th Air Force led by the 5th Bomb Wing was sending almost one thousand heavy bombers to attack Ploesti. Four Bomb Groups of the 5th Bomb Wing (B-17) were headed to the Romano Americano Refinery. The 463rd BG took off at 0710. The 5th BW was flying through heavy clouds that reached up to at least 30,000 feet (~9000 m). Whether the recall code, “History One”, was broadcast is not clear, but the other three groups of the 5th BW all returned to base or attacked alternate targets. The 97th BG lost one A/C near Mostar. If I recall correctly some B-24s attacked Ploesti.

The weather cleared some as the 463rd crossed over the Danube so they decided to press on to the target. However, their fighter escort was late taking off because of trouble with one of the first planes. When they arrived at the rendezvous point the 463rd was not there and the other B-17 groups were headed back West. So, they returned to base. That left the 35 A/C of the 463rd all alone well out in front of what parts of the 15th Air Force were still headed towards Ploesti. The 463rd made it without serious trouble to the initial point, Homoraciul, at 1050. The six minute bomb run was through intense flak. Five minutes after the target at about 1100 the 463rd was attacked by as many as 100 aircraft (Bf-109, Ju-88, and IAR 80/81 misidentified as FW-190s).

The first attacks were head on and by 1107 three A/C in the first echelon (42-31829 Able 3, 42-31791 Baker 6, and 42-97726 Able 5) were shot down. At 1108, A/C 42-31803 in the Easy 2 position was shot down. A/C 42-97540 was lost at 1113.

A/C 42-31825 left the formation some time after the target and was last seen by U.S. fighters at 43 50’ N, 24 39’ E, northwest of Turnul Magarele Romania. ‘825 may have been finally shot down by Bulgarian Bf-109s, perhaps Podporuchyk Evgeni Tonchev “shot down one 4-engine bomber in a bomber formation – fell at Prokupene” see: http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/victo...ulgaria-ww2.pdf

Steve

This post has been edited by Steve on December 11, 2008 01:35 am

This is from the 463rd Bomb Group Mission Report for 18 May 1944: 90/100 ME 109s, FW 190s and some JU 88s were encountered from 5 minutes after target for a period of about 20 minutes. During the first 10 minutes of engagement no escort was present and E/A attacked aggressively head on right thru the formation 6 or 7 abreast and to within 50 feet. E/A also attacked from side and rear with some E/A making repeated attacks. Were driven off by P-38 escort when they arrived at 1110. E/A included silver ME 109s with yellow wing tips and black swastika, planes with yellow nose and planes with yellow wing tips.

In other documents from the time I have seen "aggressive" applied to fighters closing in to 150 yards (about 135 m). Whether 50 feet (about 15 m) is an accurate measure, it is indicative of how aggressive the attacks were. As noted previously by others on this thread, there were no FW-190 equipped units in the area, so the aircraft identified as FW-190 are actually IAR-80/81.

That's not true. Many people are now putting the = mark between Fw 190 and I.A.R. 80, despite the Luftwaffe having Fw 190 units stationed in Rumania, which occasionally did attack US air formations flying over Rumania. Their actions should not be discounted!

Gen. Dénes